Commentary Criticism

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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by mikefrench »

didnt read the whole thread

there's two things i think that good commentary wants

1) explanation of what's happening

2) high level analysis

ideally you have two people, one person is literally just talking super fast and saying everything that's happening. "joe activates, looks like a force drain of two at tatooine, phil loses a luke from hand and one off the top...rebel barrier. joe deploys another pilot to tatooine, looks like jango fett" etc

and then the other guy, during pauses in the action, adds stuff like "losing that barrier off the top is not such a bad thing for phil, since now he can play it from lost pile. what's interesting is, phil chose to lose off the top but he has a very big hand, looks like what, 10 cards? that usually means he has a very good hand, which has got to scare joe. i think that's one big reason he chose to back up his space fleet there with jango."

when you miss one or the other, your coverage is going to be worse. right now, it seems like we have a deficit in the first category, since we don't have good enough video quality for the commentators to see, and/or we don't have enough runners/spotters to communicate information to the commentators. i'm not sure this is feasible, but i think if we wanted great coverage, we would want to give the commentators almost perfect information about the board state constantly, so they can give that info to the viewers.


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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by quickdraw3457 »

quesosauce37 wrote:off site commentary just feels so disconnected from the main event.

they dont have a direct connection with the TD, they cant go in and get more deets, theres no interviews with players between rounds, etc
x2. And I think from off-site the commentators are more prone to distractions or being pulled away. We just have to weigh the costs (literally) and benefits of sending people to the event and see if it's worth it.
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by agnos »

arebelspy wrote:I think commentary from people who don't play is some of the worst.

The better the player, the better the commentary in general.

Obviously a high level player might give poor analysis, and we can find counter examples, so I'm not saying it 100% holds, but there's a strong correlation.

Having someone who doesn't know what each deck is trying to do can, at best, describe what's going on. They can't analyze mistakes, gameplans, etc.

I'd rather have an offsite high level commentator (say tom kelly couldn't make the MPC or something) than an on-site person who hasn't played in year(s), personally.

Nothing against agnos, this applies across the board.

Agnos's points are correct. He can say what MAKES good commentary. That doesn't mean he can DO good swccg commentary. Like I could commentate swccg fairly well, I think, but I couldn't commentate, say, hockey, just cause I know what makes good commentary.
TBH, I think the weak points my commentary would include would be:
1. I have an S->TH slur that can make be slightly harder to understand. At this point, there's nothing I can do about this because I can't even hear it unless it's on a recording.
2. I'm in no way (currently) caught up on the state of the game. No matter how good I am at analyzing things, not knowing who's favored, how exactly matchups play out, what most lists tend to look like, the various differences between say OA using 12-card, 3-effect, vs Jakku CRV, etc. It means I am less likely to give out correct information.
3. I tend to use "um" and "uh" a bunch which breaks up the train of thought.
4. I can be overly critical of lines I disagree with even when my line is correct.

There's probably a few more that I'm missing, but those are the ones that I've been thinking about for the past few days. Point 2 is obviously the most fixable. It's already something I'm planning on fixing by heading down to ATL and playing more, by watching more Gemp/holotable, by playing games on gemp/holotable. If I get asked/approved/whatever to do commentary, I plan on recording some HT games and recording what commentary I would give to them and then listening back to it. Or maybe even recording games I'm in and give commentary on them. I don't think I'd be good just going in cold; in fact, I'd be far worse than most.
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by rhendon »

quesosauce37 wrote:
agnos wrote:
deck wrote:I would just like to point out that this was a 60 person tournament and I don't think the stream ever had 60 viewers watching at once. The job isn't easy, and having someone different doing it at each event doesn't help.

And again, there is very small viewership, and most of the people watching are familiar with the game. A game with so many virtual cards isn't NARP friendly anyway. And if you are catching things in game and the commentators aren't, what do you need them to explain it to you for?

I thought the stream was awesome, and I love being able to watch my friends and former opponents play this game when I can't be there.
I don't disagree that the job isn't easy. I think it's really tough; it's a hard balancing act. But I do think there are things we can do better. I do think that considering how popular various streams are and how common place it is for nerds to watch streams that we can use the the stream (even in a little way) to help revitalize the community. To give an example, streaming SC:BW was a major reason the classic game came back to prominence in Korea after the 2010 gambling scandal; it's also in part why the scene was able to stay alive. I don't think it's unimportant to make the stream the best it can be (given the limited resources).

dont take this the wrong way, but itd be nice to hear from you more often, if this is something you are serious enough about to write these critiques, id honestly think youd be the exact type of person who we would want to do commentary or production. When you were super active, you were a contributor to the game behind the scenes and a player that a few of the top players would go to for decks, and tech. But you dont play anymore (afaik correct me if i am wrong), and you seem interested in making commentary better. Get out ahead of it and volunteer to help, like i did, and you (and people like you) can do the commentary, or produce it, and make it the way you want. I got to do commentary because i asked scott if they needed help, its helpful to write critiques, but this is me challenging you, and the others out there with the same opinion, that if you want to make it better, do more than just post critiques.
This needs to be said in a lot of ways to a lot of people in a lot of places. If you think there is a better way, PM an advocate or whoever was in charge of doing that. Give them your thoughts. Tell them how to make it better. Do it and show them.

Doing it in the middle of a stream, then starting your own stream is not the right way to do things. Scott and the PC spent a lot of money (almost 5k) to make streaming and commentary happen for worlds. That is a little high because of the stupid hotel's internet fee, but this isn't something that can be thrown around all the time without a lot of help from the players donating. The PC doesn't have MTG or other games 6 figures to throw towards 1 event for streaming. Yet with what little the PC does throw at it, the quality is far better than finding out what is going on at FFG's worlds.

What Matt, Queso and Dan did this weekend is a lot of work. The set up is ridiculous. Spending 8+ hours commentating is not easy. Not knowing the equipment and with the PC trying to add hand cams and more makes it even more difficult. I remoted into the PC friday night for almost an hour or so working with them to get everything configured.

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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by chriskelly »

I've only watched one game so far but Matt, Dan and the sauce did AMAZING. Props and thanks to you guys.

Also thanks to Scott and a Jeremy for setting it up. The coverage was amazing.

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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by shawnd1984 »

chriskelly wrote:I've only watched one game so far but Matt, Dan and the sauce did AMAZING. Props and thanks to you guys.

Also thanks to Scott and a Jeremy for setting it up. The coverage was amazing.
Agreed. Articulate is key.
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by chriskelly »

Like seriously, after reading a lot of these threads, I assumed you guys like stuttered and forgot the order of the phases. You all provided a high level analysis and added a lot. I have no idea what everyone is crying about.

I heard great things about the guest commentators from day 3 too so looking forward to that too.

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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by quesosauce37 »

thank you guys, most feedback we got was reasonable if not well received, but like anything with swccg you cant please them all
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by Advocate »

So we obviously are going to get better. One item I want feedback on is what the players don't like content wise if anything and/or what we are missing?

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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by Rolling Snakes »

Advocate wrote:So we obviously are going to get better. One item I want feedback on is what the players don't like content wise if anything and/or what we are missing?

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I think someone might have mentioned this already, but the resolution on the card that gets uploaded to the twitch stream was too low for the gametext to be readable. A problem that kept coming back was commentators breathing into the micropohones and/or not being close enough to the microphone so nobody could hear what they were saying. If the commentators could hear themselves I think that would solve those issues.

Content wise, I think that the ambition should be to interview the players after each match if they're up for it. When it happened it added a lot to the entertainment value! Also, as has been mentioned, if there's more than one commentator they should be responsible for commentating on different things during the match.

And for the record, I had a great time following the stream from Sweden! It got me excited about swccg for the first time since the reset
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by Hutch »

I've posted a couple comments on the commentary so I just want to make it clear, I'd give it an overall two thumbs up. I watched ever game of the weekend and enjoyed all of it! Great job to Jerry and Dan and all others who jumped in. I only comment because no matter how good it is, there'll always be room for improvement.

Another thing that could be improved is the glare in the center of the table. I'm not an expert on such things but maybe one of those umbrella things you see in photography sets could help?
Last edited by Hutch on August 19th, 2017, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by Advocate »

So a windscreen over the mic could help with wind noise.

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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by quickdraw3457 »

Advocate wrote:So a windscreen over the mic could help with wind noise.

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I don't think that's necessary, but if we have

1) Audio feeding into the headsets (no idea why we couldn't get this to work)
2) Even mic levels on all headsets
3) move mic further away from your mouth

then it should solve that issue of hearing the breathing. Commentators should be aware of this too, which is why #1 is important.
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by TB »

commentary was spotless. Such a great succes. personally I appreciate the decklists being part of the commentary but maybe, if people feel its a problem, next time you should just speak in general terms and talk about general builds and typical variations over those builds. Card choices etc. should DEFINETELY be a part of commentary and imho you did a great job. I really enjoyed following this events. The interviews made everything so much better and Matt, dan and queso were amazing. its not easy to keep such a broadcast relevant, believe me!
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by arebelspy »

I think the quality of Mics varied, so I ended up using Jerry's, and sounded better by coincidence. Buy 2 more of the model he had.

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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by TB »

arebelspy wrote:I think the quality of Mics varied, so I ended up using Jerry's, and sounded better by coincidence. Buy 2 more of the model he had.
btw, joe! I feel bad for not mentioning your efforts in the studio. When you took over that interview of Chu and Westergaard (think) with no prep at all and just nailed it, that was awesome, man : )
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by arebelspy »

TB wrote:
arebelspy wrote:I think the quality of Mics varied, so I ended up using Jerry's, and sounded better by coincidence. Buy 2 more of the model he had.
btw, joe! I feel bad for not mentioning your efforts in the studio. When you took over that interview of Chu and Westergaard (think) with no prep at all and just nailed it, that was awesome, man : )
That must have been someone else. :)

I interviewed Chu/Phil @ the very end, but Chu/Westergaard would have been day 2.

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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by TB »

it was the Chu phil one, then. I just remember someone off screen asking who can do this and you just took it. Contemplated what you wanted to say for like 5 secs and then just nailed a totally relevant little roundtable discussion on the match : )

good job.
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by TB »

at least that was my impression.
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Re: Commentary Criticism

Post by marines28 »

The final interview with Joe, Phil, and Jonny was great. Nice job.
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