Day 1 and 3 decklists

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by vhstapes »

Harpster wrote:So let me get this straight.... Someone was checking the backers behind full templates???

AYFKM???
+1

And look, I get it, rules are rules. But the fact is everyone in the community knows each other and you can be fairly certain none of them are narcs for Disney, and it would require said Disney operative to randomly ask to verify someone's full card vslip during a game, at which point they could point and go "gotcha!" and shut this whole thing down.

Is there a form somewhere you have to fill out for each event and report it to the intellectual property owners, and on said form there's a box that you have to check that says you performed a random deck check for incorrect vcards? I doubt it but if there is, fine. Otherwise, why bother doing this?


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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by arebelspy »

if and when someone is adversely affected (dq, or game loss or something), i'll be upset. until then, let them check, no need to rage.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by puck71 »

That's part of having the right card in your deck - no different than a proxy technically. It would be a little trickier to check with the full template foil sticker slips though.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by JosephPhillips »

arebelspy wrote:if and when someone is adversely affected (dq, or game loss or something), i'll be upset. until then, let them check, no need to rage.
In this case, I was so stressed about getting the right cards between games that I grabbed the wrong interrupt at the beginning of my next game in a very winnable matchup and ended up losing. Not saying the deck check caused me to lose a game, but I did feel my concentration was lacking.

I'm not really upset over it. It's my responsibility to have correct cards in my deck. I'm actually usually very anal about it and the one time I slip up is the one time it comes back to bite me.

But I do wonder how "random" these deck checks are. If there's like a number generator on the laptop that determines who gets the deck check, then great. But if I was pointed out in the crowd as a safe player to check, knowing that you aren't going to risk pissing off a potential top 8 contender, then the fact that this was my first worlds and I did feel the issue affected my concentration a little, then that is a bit upsetting.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by arebelspy »

JosephPhillips wrote: I'm not really upset over it. It's my responsibility to have correct cards in my deck. I'm actually usually very anal about it and the one time I slip up is the one time it comes back to bite me.

But I do wonder how "random" these deck checks are. If there's like a number generator on the laptop that determines who gets the deck check, then great. But if I was pointed out in the crowd as a safe player to check, knowing that you aren't going to risk pissing off a potential top 8 contender, then the fact that this was my first worlds and I did feel the issue affected my concentration a little, then that is a bit upsetting.
i don't know why the conspiracy theory. i think this is the second time i've seen you post that accusation. have any proof at all for that?

afaik, totally random. iirc, when i was playing emil the first time, he got randomly checked.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by allstarz97 »

I'm guessing they do a random number generator or literally ask someone to pick a number between 0-30. I've been deck checked so many times across the many games I've played, it's actually kinda nice, you get a little break and get to chat with your opponent.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by JosephPhillips »

arebelspy wrote:
JosephPhillips wrote: I'm not really upset over it. It's my responsibility to have correct cards in my deck. I'm actually usually very anal about it and the one time I slip up is the one time it comes back to bite me.

But I do wonder how "random" these deck checks are. If there's like a number generator on the laptop that determines who gets the deck check, then great. But if I was pointed out in the crowd as a safe player to check, knowing that you aren't going to risk pissing off a potential top 8 contender, then the fact that this was my first worlds and I did feel the issue affected my concentration a little, then that is a bit upsetting.
i don't know why the conspiracy theory. i think this is the second time i've seen you post that accusation. have any proof at all for that?

afaik, totally random. iirc, when i was playing emil the first time, he got randomly checked.
No accusations here. I'm making an IF statement, which is purely hypothetical. By not knowing what the process is, it's not out of the question to merely wonder if the process is an equitable one.

If this is done similarly to how Justin described, then that's great and it's a non-issue. This is not the forum for it but I might just offer some feedback to the PC that they make the policy well known to avoid any potential concerns of unfairness.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by mserisman »

imrahil327 wrote:
Harpster wrote:So let me get this straight.... Someone was checking the backers behind full templates???

AYFKM???
Not sure why this is so outrageous. Each card is required to have a single matching Decipher card.
Full templates are full templates. The PC sent me Anakin foils that are stickers, so I guess that negates the underlying card, when I stick them on a card?

But yes, full templates requirements for random backing cards is beyond absurd.

Deck checks should focus on whether the cards in the deck align to the cards on the deck list, and whether the foil slips are the accurate ones. These two factors can influence the outcome of a game, or provide an opportunity for the integrity of the game to be questioned.

Whether there is a Timer Mine behind a full v-slip of Anakin, has zero impact on anything. Embarrassing.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by Darth_Link »

What you have to do in order to play this game competitively (worlds/mpc/euro level at least) is fill in a decklist correctly and print v slips, put them with correct card behind. That is not a lot to ask of the players. I have complained quite a lot about not being allowed to use foils, so this is not something I say lightly.

Playing other games, you have to buy expensive cards to play new cards, here you print a couple papers, and put those in front of a common card. Not particularly embarassing of the PC to enforce that legal issue.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by gogolen »

Darth_Link wrote:What you have to do in order to play this game competitively (worlds/mpc/euro level at least) is fill in a decklist correctly and print v slips, put them with correct card behind. That is not a lot to ask of the players. I have complained quite a lot about not being allowed to use foils, so this is not something I say lightly.

Playing other games, you have to buy expensive cards to play new cards, here you print a couple papers, and put those in front of a common card. Not particularly embarassing of the PC to enforce that legal issue.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by mserisman »

Darth_Link wrote:What you have to do in order to play this game competitively (worlds/mpc/euro level at least) is fill in a decklist correctly and print v slips, put them with correct card behind. That is not a lot to ask of the players. I have complained quite a lot about not being allowed to use foils, so this is not something I say lightly.

Playing other games, you have to buy expensive cards to play new cards, here you print a couple papers, and put those in front of a common card. Not particularly embarassing of the PC to enforce that legal issue.
Not embarrassing to enforce the rule... agreed.

Embarrassing to have the rule in the first place with full v-slips.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by rhendon »

gogolen wrote:
Darth_Link wrote:What you have to do in order to play this game competitively (worlds/mpc/euro level at least) is fill in a decklist correctly and print v slips, put them with correct card behind. That is not a lot to ask of the players. I have complained quite a lot about not being allowed to use foils, so this is not something I say lightly.

Playing other games, you have to buy expensive cards to play new cards, here you print a couple papers, and put those in front of a common card. Not particularly embarassing of the PC to enforce that legal issue.
x2
x3

When I ran worlds, I held people accountable to what they wrote. It sucked to have to tell people when they messed up. This is the rule though. The rule is there to prevent cheating (not that any of the people that messed up did I believe to be cheating), and it is there for posting deck lists to the community. If your deck is all sorts of jacked on the list, then what does that say when it gets posted.

People will always say we're here to have fun so let it slide. However, it takes 5 minutes to fill out the lists correctly and legibly. It shouldn't be like pulling teeth that it seems to be.
mserisman wrote:Embarrassing to have the rule in the first place with full v-slips.
Not if it is part of the agreement made with Decipher and Lucasarts that allows us to play the game in the first place and not having the rule would mean shutting this game down. Its not that hard of a rule to follow either. Most of the full arts go over premiere commons that are super easy to get. Literally the only excuse is laziness or disrespect for the integrity of the event.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by imrahil327 »

Let Lucas know that you feel our agreement with them is embarrassing, maybe they'll let us change it!
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by rhendon »

imrahil327 wrote:Let Lucas know that you feel our agreement with them is embarrassing, maybe they'll let us change it!
I doubt he cares at this point. He's got his billions.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

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arebelspy wrote:
JosephPhillips wrote: I'm not really upset over it. It's my responsibility to have correct cards in my deck. I'm actually usually very anal about it and the one time I slip up is the one time it comes back to bite me.

But I do wonder how "random" these deck checks are. If there's like a number generator on the laptop that determines who gets the deck check, then great. But if I was pointed out in the crowd as a safe player to check, knowing that you aren't going to risk pissing off a potential top 8 contender, then the fact that this was my first worlds and I did feel the issue affected my concentration a little, then that is a bit upsetting.
i don't know why the conspiracy theory. i think this is the second time i've seen you post that accusation. have any proof at all for that?

afaik, totally random. iirc, when i was playing emil the first time, he got randomly checked.
Kind of agree with Joe. If you got flustered by a deck check, you probably were not taking home the trophy anyway. Let's not blame the volunteers who did such a good job running this for enforcing the pretty clear rules of the event.

I also got deck checked, by the way.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by vhstapes »

I get where you guys are coming from but I still think it's funny. Deck checks make total sense, looking under full slips makes none, but go for it, it is within your legal right.

The argument that we can only play this game because of the agreement with Lucas is completely false though. We are, I believe, the only dead game that bothered to make such an agreement, all of the others exist without permission and without interference. Of course we're also the only dead game with an Amazon Smile account and other pros, and cons, of being an official non-profit, so, like I said, I get where you're all coming from, and certainly don't expect any changes.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

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vhstapes wrote:I get where you guys are coming from but I still think it's funny. Deck checks make total sense, looking under full slips makes none, but go for it, it is within your legal right.

The argument that we can only play this game because of the agreement with Lucas is completely false though. We are, I believe, the only dead game that bothered to make such an agreement, all of the others exist without permission and without interference. Of course we're also the only dead game with an Amazon Smile account and other pros, and cons, of being an official non-profit, so, like I said, I get where you're all coming from, and certainly don't expect any changes.
Raw deal signed an agreement I believe. Star Trek and Paramount have shown to not really care (but I believe those guys have some agreement with Decipher to carry on the game). DBZ has permission from Panini and DBZ rights owner to continue on. Then there is us. These are the only games I know that are legally operating to continue on. Any other game could be shut down for copyright violations at anytime. Most likely they won't. But you are a fool if you think Disney or Lucas wouldn't have shut us down. Before Disney bought the license, Lucas would check in periodically. No idea about Disney but I would assume they have as well. Both of them take huge steps to protect their copyrights when it comes to Star Wars. Star Wars is literally the hottest IP out there.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

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rhendon wrote:
vhstapes wrote:I get where you guys are coming from but I still think it's funny. Deck checks make total sense, looking under full slips makes none, but go for it, it is within your legal right.

The argument that we can only play this game because of the agreement with Lucas is completely false though. We are, I believe, the only dead game that bothered to make such an agreement, all of the others exist without permission and without interference. Of course we're also the only dead game with an Amazon Smile account and other pros, and cons, of being an official non-profit, so, like I said, I get where you're all coming from, and certainly don't expect any changes.
Raw deal signed an agreement I believe. Star Trek and Paramount have shown to not really care (but I believe those guys have some agreement with Decipher to carry on the game). DBZ has permission from Panini and DBZ rights owner to continue on. Then there is us. These are the only games I know that are legally operating to continue on. Any other game could be shut down for copyright violations at anytime. Most likely they won't. But you are a fool if you think Disney or Lucas wouldn't have shut us down. Before Disney bought the license, Lucas would check in periodically. No idea about Disney but I would assume they have as well. Both of them take huge steps to protect their copyrights when it comes to Star Wars. Star Wars is literally the hottest IP out there.
See how in my response I said your argument is false, and in yours you say I'm a fool? These forums are getting less enjoyable by the day.

What little I know I learned from an uncle of mine who is a copyright attorney. He's lead me to believe that as long as a game operated under the term Unofficial and made no money from the game itself, there's little the rights holders can really do. But that could be wrong I suppose. Plus we couldn't charge for tournaments, etc so maybe it would be worse.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by rhendon »

vhstapes wrote:
rhendon wrote:
vhstapes wrote:I get where you guys are coming from but I still think it's funny. Deck checks make total sense, looking under full slips makes none, but go for it, it is within your legal right.

The argument that we can only play this game because of the agreement with Lucas is completely false though. We are, I believe, the only dead game that bothered to make such an agreement, all of the others exist without permission and without interference. Of course we're also the only dead game with an Amazon Smile account and other pros, and cons, of being an official non-profit, so, like I said, I get where you're all coming from, and certainly don't expect any changes.
Raw deal signed an agreement I believe. Star Trek and Paramount have shown to not really care (but I believe those guys have some agreement with Decipher to carry on the game). DBZ has permission from Panini and DBZ rights owner to continue on. Then there is us. These are the only games I know that are legally operating to continue on. Any other game could be shut down for copyright violations at anytime. Most likely they won't. But you are a fool if you think Disney or Lucas wouldn't have shut us down. Before Disney bought the license, Lucas would check in periodically. No idea about Disney but I would assume they have as well. Both of them take huge steps to protect their copyrights when it comes to Star Wars. Star Wars is literally the hottest IP out there.
See how in my response I said your argument is false, and in yours you say I'm a fool? These forums are getting less enjoyable by the day.

What little I know I learned from an uncle of mine who is a copyright attorney. He's lead me to believe that as long as a game operated under the term Unofficial and made no money from the game itself, there's little the rights holders can really do. But that could be wrong I suppose. Plus we couldn't charge for tournaments, etc so maybe it would be worse.
That is false information. We can't use any images without Disney's expressed consent. We can't use trademarked game mechanics from Decipher without their expressed consent.

I also didn't call you a fool. I said that as a general anyone who doesn't believe Disney/Lucas would protect their property is a fool. Way to take it as an attack though.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by vhstapes »

rhendon wrote:
vhstapes wrote:
rhendon wrote:
vhstapes wrote:I get where you guys are coming from but I still think it's funny. Deck checks make total sense, looking under full slips makes none, but go for it, it is within your legal right.

The argument that we can only play this game because of the agreement with Lucas is completely false though. We are, I believe, the only dead game that bothered to make such an agreement, all of the others exist without permission and without interference. Of course we're also the only dead game with an Amazon Smile account and other pros, and cons, of being an official non-profit, so, like I said, I get where you're all coming from, and certainly don't expect any changes.
Raw deal signed an agreement I believe. Star Trek and Paramount have shown to not really care (but I believe those guys have some agreement with Decipher to carry on the game). DBZ has permission from Panini and DBZ rights owner to continue on. Then there is us. These are the only games I know that are legally operating to continue on. Any other game could be shut down for copyright violations at anytime. Most likely they won't. But you are a fool if you think Disney or Lucas wouldn't have shut us down. Before Disney bought the license, Lucas would check in periodically. No idea about Disney but I would assume they have as well. Both of them take huge steps to protect their copyrights when it comes to Star Wars. Star Wars is literally the hottest IP out there.
See how in my response I said your argument is false, and in yours you say I'm a fool? These forums are getting less enjoyable by the day.

What little I know I learned from an uncle of mine who is a copyright attorney. He's lead me to believe that as long as a game operated under the term Unofficial and made no money from the game itself, there's little the rights holders can really do. But that could be wrong I suppose. Plus we couldn't charge for tournaments, etc so maybe it would be worse.
That is false information. We can't use any images without Disney's expressed consent. We can't use trademarked game mechanics from Decipher without their expressed consent.

I also didn't call you a fool. I said that as a general anyone who doesn't believe Disney/Lucas would protect their property is a fool. Way to take it as an attack though.
"But you are a fool" seems pretty directed, but okay. I mean you follow that up with "way to take it as an attack" to further attempt to belittle me, but no worries. Bigger fish to fry, etc.

I could lay out exactly why I think checking full slips is a silly thing and comes off as an abuse of power, but we don't need another 10+ page thread of two opposing viewpoints stating the exact same things back and forth at each other a la the Diplo v EOps thread, so I will concede the issue.
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