Day 1 and 3 decklists

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by rhendon »

vhstapes wrote:
"But you are a fool" seems pretty directed, but okay. I mean you follow that up with "way to take it as an attack" to further attempt to belittle me, but no worries. Bigger fish to fry, etc.

I could lay out exactly why I think checking full slips is a silly thing and comes off as an abuse of power, but we don't need another 10+ page thread of two opposing viewpoints stating the exact same things back and forth at each other a la the Diplo v EOps thread, so I will concede the issue.
The context matters. I apologize if you took it as such. I meant that as a general to anyone who thinks Disney/Lucas doesn't protect their property. We hear all the time well Star Trek does x or y and it is because Paramount which owns Star Trek license doesn't really care like Lucas/Disney does.

We have to have the rule in the tournament guide. What the TO does or doesn't do is another story. I don't believe I checked what is underneath when I ran events. I was more focused on if AIs were legit, decklists was accurate with deck, and there were no marked cards. Those to me are far more important to check vs underlying card. However, this comes from me playing other games a bunch and running them where these are a must during deck check.



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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by vhstapes »

rhendon wrote:
vhstapes wrote:
"But you are a fool" seems pretty directed, but okay. I mean you follow that up with "way to take it as an attack" to further attempt to belittle me, but no worries. Bigger fish to fry, etc.

I could lay out exactly why I think checking full slips is a silly thing and comes off as an abuse of power, but we don't need another 10+ page thread of two opposing viewpoints stating the exact same things back and forth at each other a la the Diplo v EOps thread, so I will concede the issue.
The context matters. I apologize if you took it as such. I meant that as a general to anyone who thinks Disney/Lucas doesn't protect their property. We hear all the time well Star Trek does x or y and it is because Paramount which owns Star Trek license doesn't really care like Lucas/Disney does.

We have to have the rule in the tournament guide. What the TO does or doesn't do is another story. I don't believe I checked what is underneath when I ran events. I was more focused on if AIs were legit, decklists was accurate with deck, and there were no marked cards. Those to me are far more important to check vs underlying card. However, this comes from me playing other games a bunch and running them where these are a must during deck check.
I'm definitely not saying that the rules in the tournament guide should be changed, and I 100% get why it has to be there. I personally think it's a silly thing for a TD to do, wastes time for absolutely no benefit, but like I said it is totally within their rights to do. I think the things you checked for are actually important for the game.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by JosephPhillips »

chriskelly wrote:
arebelspy wrote:
JosephPhillips wrote: I'm not really upset over it. It's my responsibility to have correct cards in my deck. I'm actually usually very anal about it and the one time I slip up is the one time it comes back to bite me.

But I do wonder how "random" these deck checks are. If there's like a number generator on the laptop that determines who gets the deck check, then great. But if I was pointed out in the crowd as a safe player to check, knowing that you aren't going to risk pissing off a potential top 8 contender, then the fact that this was my first worlds and I did feel the issue affected my concentration a little, then that is a bit upsetting.
i don't know why the conspiracy theory. i think this is the second time i've seen you post that accusation. have any proof at all for that?

afaik, totally random. iirc, when i was playing emil the first time, he got randomly checked.
Kind of agree with Joe. If you got flustered by a deck check, you probably were not taking home the trophy anyway. Let's not blame the volunteers who did such a good job running this for enforcing the pretty clear rules of the event.

I also got deck checked, by the way.
Yeah, I wasn't seriously contending to win worlds. I mean, I played TIGIH and TTO. I did better on day 1 and the consolation event with different decks but for day 2 I rolled the dice on matchups and lost that bet. So, I wasn't a contender anyway.

This was just an unfortunate circumstance for me because all things equal, I think I would have played better in my next game. I think most players at worlds are more in tune with the norms of championship play and the best judgments that the PC uses when running them, which makes sense as they are very active players and volunteers. I like to have clear, well-defined rules that are actually followed and when everything is so informal, yet potentially extreme (possibly being DQ'd, etc), that's just really hard for me personally. I mean, in the tournament guide it says 25% of decks should be checked. Was this adhered to? It also says the selection should be randomized. How is this done? Hayes told me he had a west coast bias when he asked for my deck. Maybe he was joking...I'd like to think he was, but what do I know?

And I had no idea how big of a deal this was. A lot of other players might have just shrugged it off and fixed the deck at their convenience, but as a beginner at the national level and considering this is my first worlds event, I have no context as to what my risks are if I don't fix my deck before I play it again.

So I'm not trying to make a bunch of noise here or complain. The topic was brought up by some other folks so I figured I'd offer my perspective since I was the player they were referring to. There's just a lot of norms like these and unspoken policies such that being on the outside looking in can be a psychological disadvantage.

I hope that clarifies. Not calling foul or anything...that's just what my experience was. I still had a total blast and hope to make it back next year. I enjoyed meeting a bunch of the guys in person for the first time and also seeing a few familiar faces!
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by chriskelly »

I hear you. Glad you could make it out and hope you had a good time and keep coming to them!

Obviously the "no proxy rule" isn't suspended based upon the size of the virtual slip, and it seems like you were given a reasonable option to correct your deck error, so kudos to all involved for handling the situation appropriately.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by puck71 »

The 25% is not a hard and fast rule - it's a guideline to try to meet if feasible. There aren't always enough people/time to check as many decks as we might like. The tournament guide does say the decks are chosen randomly. There are tons of ways to make a random choice, but we could write a specific method if people want it more spelled out. Personally I think it would make sense to have something in the tournament software to do it, and have an Excel random number generator as Plan B.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by gogolen »

The way i have seen most TDs handle deck checks over the last 15 years usually goes like this:

Early rounds- completely random
Later rounds- people with winning records

Unfortunately we don't have the manpower to check everyone, but we try to do as many as possible, in hopes of both catching errors and discouraging people from trying to gain unfair advantages.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by JosephPhillips »

Darth_Link wrote:I have complained quite a lot about not being allowed to use foils, so this is not something I say lightly.
What's wrong with using foils?
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by rhendon »

JosephPhillips wrote:
Darth_Link wrote:I have complained quite a lot about not being allowed to use foils, so this is not something I say lightly.
What's wrong with using foils?
Euro foils are thicker than other cards and thus can be technically considered marked cards.

Decipher foils will warp over time and thus have a bend in them, and possibly be a bit thicker too. They can also be considered marked cards.

Marked cards are any cards that can be placed in a deck, shuffled sufficiently and still be found through deck manipulation or sleeve markings.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by JosephPhillips »

rhendon wrote:
JosephPhillips wrote:
Darth_Link wrote:I have complained quite a lot about not being allowed to use foils, so this is not something I say lightly.
What's wrong with using foils?
Euro foils are thicker than other cards and thus can be technically considered marked cards.

Decipher foils will warp over time and thus have a bend in them, and possibly be a bit thicker too. They can also be considered marked cards.

Marked cards are any cards that can be placed in a deck, shuffled sufficiently and still be found through deck manipulation or sleeve markings.
That makes sense, but do we actually have a "no foils" policy? If you bend the cards back the other way so they are flat, is that ok? I had foils in my deck but nothing came of them during my deck check.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by imrahil327 »

Official Decipher foils are not illegal, as long as they cannot be identified like rhendon said. Presumably since yours did not get pointed out, they were fine.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by rhendon »

imrahil327 wrote:Official Decipher foils are not illegal, as long as they cannot be identified like rhendon said. Presumably since yours did not get pointed out, they were fine.
Also, if you sufficiently randomize what cards are foil, it makes it less likely to be marked. Like if you had all your 1 destiny cards foil, or only 1 destiny cards or lower were foil, this could be seen as cheating. Maybe you foil out all your mauls w/ sticks and that is it, or something else similar to those 2. You can see how having marked cards gives you a huge advantage.

But if you're just trying to foil out as much as you can, it becomes less likely to be seen as marking cards for cheating purposes.

Not really giving Imrahil any info he doesn't know but quoted for context.

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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by JosephPhillips »

Great to know, thanks guys!
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by Shadow 13 »

i remember reading a TR where somebody was saying the only foil cards in his DS deck were EPP Mauls, so he could stop them on top of his force pile and know to draw them.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by Darth_Link »

Shadow 13 wrote:i remember reading a TR where somebody was saying the only foil cards in his DS deck were EPP Mauls, so he could stop them on top of his force pile and know to draw them.
"Do you want to cut my deck?" Hmm, your top card is very bent, no I'm fine thanks
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by JosephPhillips »

I've been in a number of games where I have an opportunity to cut a reserve deck when there is only like 2-4 cards remaining and one of the cards is clearly warped. I usually cut to that card and more often than not it's a destiny 1 main.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by Hutch »

dx_37 wrote:Sounds good. I finished the Day 3 lists. Just got to post them in WordPress and then they're all done.
These are finally in WordPress. I kept forgetting to email these to myself so I could work on them at home. Done now if someone can link them to the Tournament Decklist page.
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Re: Day 1 and 3 decklists

Post by JediJer »

dx_37 wrote:
dx_37 wrote:Sounds good. I finished the Day 3 lists. Just got to post them in WordPress and then they're all done.
These are finally in WordPress. I kept forgetting to email these to myself so I could work on them at home. Done now if someone can link them to the Tournament Decklist page.
Thanks. I'll work on this today (and maybe finish up the day 2 links as well)

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