Euro MPC Consolation tournament

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Shadow 14
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Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Shadow 14 »

I have a little problem with the Consolation and wanted to ask you guys for help.

As you know (or not) the nature of the MPC is to let the "strongest" player play against the "weakest" player due to a seeding process.
The idea is that the strong players slowly build up towards a confrontation. Of course, every-one has a chance and can "prove them wrong".
Usually in the first round you have 16 good players elminate 16 not so good players.
These eliminated ones then start another tourney... the consolation.

Now, the problem I have is that we have a lot of new and returning players (NARPS), who are playing in a large tourney for the first (or in a long) time. It's totally fine if they have to play against a World or Euro champ in the first round and start another tourney.
What I don't like is that they are seeded again and have to play against another (probably) much stronger opponent.
At a regular swiss tourney they would meet even skilled opponents after the third or forth round. I don't want this to turn into a massacre, where especially the NARPS lose 4 games in a row. I know it's still fun and the atmosphere and people are great, but I worry about the NARPS.

Any suggestions about the consolation format?


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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Calaglin »

As the only thing I've been playing lately is Pokemon with my kids, I vote for a Pokemon tournament!
You could start a cube or swiss tournament after the 1st round next to the consolation mpc, but things can get complicated.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Shadow 14 »

The only Pokemon card allowed is the Star Killer Base. ;)

I thought about either...

- Splitting it into 2 consolations (strong seeds being one and weaker seeds being the second)

- Pairing the strongest seeds against each other, then the next strongest and so on

- Doing random pairings for the consolation

- Doing a regular swiss differential tourney and letting any drop outs from the 2nd round of the regular MPC join (they would get a FW 2 (+0) for their missed 2 games).

Really not sure if any of this works. The last one might be best, but I need some feedback from you guys.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Calaglin »

Consolation swiss seems nice. problem here is that there will be a time gap between the mpc games and the swiss games after round 2 of the mpc.
btw, you have a typo in your announcement post, at 18:00 round 3 starts instead of round 4.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Calaglin »

another option is to give 8 players the option to skip the consolation bracket, and just start a sealed event. that way the consolation mpc kan skip a round, and everybody can watch the finals. but you need exactly 8 players to volunteer for that.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Shadow 14 »

Calaglin wrote:Consolation swiss seems nice. problem here is that there will be a time gap between the mpc games and the swiss games after round 2 of the mpc.
btw, you have a typo in your announcement post, at 18:00 round 3 starts instead of round 4.
We could actually also let the games run 1:15 hours for so consolation, then it would work.

Thanks, I corrected the typo.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by aermet69 »

Shadow 14 wrote:
Calaglin wrote:Consolation swiss seems nice. problem here is that there will be a time gap between the mpc games and the swiss games after round 2 of the mpc.
btw, you have a typo in your announcement post, at 18:00 round 3 starts instead of round 4.
We could actually also let the games run 1:15 hours for so consolation, then it would work.

Thanks, I corrected the typo.
This probably won't do either unless you keep the consolation in match play format since there are two games in main bracket, but only 1 game in swiss. I would prefer a regular swiss for the consolation though (non-diff). That'd be more NARP friendly, since the Champs don't have to beat every single force out of their opponent. Not sure about what to do with the time delay, unless you make the swiss also run 2 games - each rewarding a FW or FL. You'd play less different opponents, but still have the more cozy atmosphere and everyone coming down from main bracket just get BYEs = rounds missed.

Could that work? I totally agree with your concerns. This would also make sure that everyone gets a lot of swccg games on the day.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Calaglin »

Chris proposed this:
they would get a FW 2 (+0) for their missed 2 games
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Paul McPherson »

Shadow 14 wrote:- Doing a regular swiss differential tourney and letting any drop outs from the 2nd round of the regular MPC join (they would get a FW 2 (+0) for their missed 2 games).
This one. 6 games Swiss with differential as the scoring system (since decks would have been made with differential in mind). The event could have a small "break" after game 2 in order for the MPC Round 2 losers to join in - after 4 games I think that most players would welcome a 30 minute break.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by aermet69 »

I would vastly prefer non-diff consolation. It is heavily on my heart, as I expect to "advance" to the consolation tournament quite quickly :D
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Paul McPherson »

aermet69 wrote:I would vastly prefer non-diff consolation. It is heavily on my heart, as I expect to "advance" to the consolation tournament quite quickly :D
Whilst I would prefer a consolation using SOS I feel that this tournament is the one exception since we all would have honed our decks for match-play (i.e. differential). I don't mind either way though.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by gogolen »

The skill level by the start of the consolation bracket definitely gets closer. With 32 players your 1s play 8s in round 1. Statistically the 8s will lose 99% of the time, but when they move to the next bracket they are playing either a 4 or 5. So those games are usually more competitive.

But you can easily make the argument for the consolation to be Swiss, maybe with a top 4 cut. That let's people get more games in, and possibly pick up a few confidence boosting wins that will bring them back the next time.

Seems like swiss would work better and has support from others. Should help increase the chances they continue playing into 2019 with Euro worlds.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Shadow 14 »

After hearing your comments here, RIGHT NOW I would go with (but we're still discussing, so add your comments please)...

- swiss tournament
- 1:15 games to match the main MPC time frame
- differential

I share Caspers concern and would love to do SoS, but Paul is right that the format is probably better for differential tourneys.
The second reason is that we want the round 2 drop-outs from the main MPC to be able to join, and have no idea how to do that in SoS.

What do you guys think of...

Including First Round MPC wins into the shedule of the swiss consolation?
Meaning, if you played 1:1 in the MPC (obviously with lower differential, otherwise you wouldn't have dropped out) you get FW 2 (+0) for that.

That would probably also mean that the better players play each other in the first round consolation and the NARPS play each other.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by aermet69 »

So I'm not math dude like that Paul guy there. But what is wrong with doing SoS and just give people from main bracket BYEs that doesn't count for SoS like normal BYEs. Getting FW+0 is like the worst possible score.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Weyoun9846135 »

Shadow 14 wrote:After hearing your comments here, RIGHT NOW I would go with (but we're still discussing, so add your comments please)...

- swiss tournament
- 1:15 games to match the main MPC time frame
- differential

I share Caspers concern and would love to do SoS, but Paul is right that the format is probably better for differential tourneys.
The second reason is that we want the round 2 drop-outs from the main MPC to be able to join, and have no idea how to do that in SoS.

What do you guys think of...

Including First Round MPC wins into the shedule of the swiss consolation?
Meaning, if you played 1:1 in the MPC (obviously with lower differential, otherwise you wouldn't have dropped out) you get FW 2 (+0) for that.

That would probably also mean that the better players play each other in the first round consolation and the NARPS play each other.
Happy with this!
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Calaglin »

but Paul is right that the format is probably better for differential tourneys
I don't really get this reasoning. The goal of sos is to win your game. it doesn't matter if your deck is build for differential or not, you still need to win the game; the other way around would make sense.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by aermet69 »

Calaglin wrote:
but Paul is right that the format is probably better for differential tourneys
I don't really get this reasoning. The goal of sos is to win your game. it doesn't matter if your deck is build for differential or not, you still need to win the game; the other way around would make sense.
x2.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Darth Eweuge »

Calaglin wrote:
but Paul is right that the format is probably better for differential tourneys
I don't really get this reasoning. The goal of sos is to win your game. it doesn't matter if your deck is build for differential or not, you still need to win the game; the other way around would make sense.
X 3

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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Shadow 14 »

What Paul means, and I think he is right, is that at the main MPC you do 2 games and count your differential and even lost piles, so in general you build decks that can win you the total match. Differential is closer to that format.

I am not opposed to doing the consolation in SoS, though.
Some-one just has to walk me through what to do in each round.

Game 1: The 16 players drop out from the MPC, and I could pair them either randomly or by seed (meaning stronger seeds fighting each other).
Game 2: Another regular round of SoS.

Game 3: There are 8 more players joining from the MPC. They had advanced to another round of MPC, so they are "stronger" players than any-one at the consolation so far. Do they get 4 points (2 wins) or 2 points (1 win)? Do they get a Bye or a Miss for the first 2 games, and how do I enter this into the software.
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Re: Euro MPC Consolation tournament

Post by Paul McPherson »

Match-play decks are actually a little more variable than SOS decks since you are aware that you may be in a position where you need to win big. For example, I may choose to run more retrieval in a match-play deck (for example, I have been known to play an extra copy of Artoo-Deetoo In Red 5, Strikeforce (v) and On The Edge in a match-play deck - just before your opponent draws their last card, believing that they will win the match by a few, you lose Strikeforce (v) to retrieve Artoo-Deetoo In Red 5, activate down to it and retrieve 6 with On The Edge) and play decks that do not put as many cards on the table (Throne Room Mains or We'll Handle This, for example). In game 1 of the Consolation tournament (where we used differential) at last year's European Championship I managed to lock out my opponent with Systems Will Slip Through Your Fingers and won by 46.

These are actually the reasons why I hate differential (and by extension, I am not a fan of the MPC format - but I do love playing SW:CCG). I'm all for having a Strength of Schedule consolation event provided that we do not have to provide decklists. I would bring decks that I feel would be more fun whilst still being competitive - which I would much rather play. I'd prefer this for the German National on the Sunday as well but appreciate that that may be difficult due to the number of games.
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