Official Online MPC Rules

April 17-April 19
Wokling
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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by Wokling »

gogolen wrote:
April 2nd, 2020, 2:16 pm
Thank you all for your input, this matter is under further review. Please expect a final decision within the next 48 hours.
Thanks, gogolen!



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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by rhendon »

3MW0J8 wrote:
April 2nd, 2020, 3:22 pm
Darth_Link wrote:
April 2nd, 2020, 3:47 am
Also no spectators is awful for those of us who do not wish to participate, and just want to pick games to watch.
* ever
Tell us how you really feel...

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by gogolen »

The GEMP development team will be able to Disable observer access for the tournament. As such, rule #10 has been revised:

10) Scouting: The GEMP development team will be blocking all observers (except Admins) from watching games. This will prevent any scouting, and therefore we will not be posting decklists until after the weekend. The Twitch streamers will be given temporary Admin access so that they can provide live streaming.


This now basically mirrors our IRL events again.

It may also help with GEMP latency, as that may mean fewer people hanging out in the lobby.



The MPC bracket will be finalized in the next 24-48 hours. If this rule change makes you no longer want to participate in the event, please PM me ASAP.
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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by rhendon »

Thanks to Gogolen and the tournament team/advocates for listening and making the best decision for the event.

Thanks to the GEMP team for the extra work this will do and to our stream team for any extra work they'll get to provide the players with the best experience.

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by Blarg »

Sounds like a good solution.

Another suggestion: Why don't we make it mandatory to send a replay to the same place we are sending decklists, and then they can all be posted after the fact?

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by arebelspy »

Blarg wrote:Sounds like a good solution.

Another suggestion: Why don't we make it mandatory to send a replay to the same place we are sending decklists, and then they can all be posted after the fact?
That's a sweet idea.

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by arebelspy »

Thanks Gemp team, Goglen, Matt, and anyone else involved!

Less ideal than anyone being able to observe all games, but given that isn't fair for everyone without a large team, definitely the best solution.

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by gogolen »

arebelspy wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 5:55 pm
Thanks Gemp team, Goglen, Matt, and anyone else involved!

Less ideal than anyone being able to observe all games, but given that isn't fair for everyone without a large team, definitely the best solution.
You're welcome Olsin :rimshot
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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by arebelspy »

gogolen wrote:
arebelspy wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 5:55 pm
Thanks Gemp team, Goglen, Matt, and anyone else involved!

Less ideal than anyone being able to observe all games, but given that isn't fair for everyone without a large team, definitely the best solution.
You're welcome Olsin :rimshot
lol

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by Hazardville »

arebelspy wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 5:54 pm
Blarg wrote:Sounds like a good solution.

Another suggestion: Why don't we make it mandatory to send a replay to the same place we are sending decklists, and then they can all be posted after the fact?
That's a sweet idea.
Agreed, feels like replays are easy enough to submit that we should be able to do that. Very detailed command cards, if you will. Also makes sure no one forgets lost pile counts (i.e. me).
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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by retwin316 »

arebelspy wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 8:02 pm
gogolen wrote:
arebelspy wrote:
April 3rd, 2020, 5:55 pm
Thanks Gemp team, Goglen, Matt, and anyone else involved!

Less ideal than anyone being able to observe all games, but given that isn't fair for everyone without a large team, definitely the best solution.
You're welcome Olsin :rimshot
lol

I spelled it right on slack! Just typo'd posting my appreciation here, too. My bad! Image
Oh that Oslon, what a kidder! :lol:

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by Sagnet »

As a spectator, it is a bit disappointing that the games will not be available to watch. Now, the commentary streams are usually enjoyable, and I will probably be watching some of those. But you certainly lose out on fidelity and flexibility by blocking observers. The resolution on twitch is inevitably worse than pulling the game up in your browser. You can't shift-click on cards to see who's piloting a ship, etc. So the effort of mimicking the real thing, will have to make us forgo some of the greatest benefits of running this thing online.

One option which I believe was not discussed here, was to let each player submit multiple decklists per side (say, with a limit of four per side). Meaning that between each game you may change decks, but only to one of those that you have provided decklists for. The four decks could be completely different platforms, or just variations over the same deck with a few cards changed. That would be a strategic choice by the player.

This means that all the deckbuilding efforts would have to take place in advance of the tournament. Scouting will be of limited value, because you will never know which deck your opponent will be playing. And even when you get to the finals, unless you (or your team) have seen all four of your opponent's decks in great detail, you can not be certain about what to expect. Maybe your opponent just used three of his decks in the previous rounds, and saved the last deck for the final round.

Don't have the time to prepare 2x4 decks for the tournament? No problem, just go with one or two for each side. Your opponents will never know. But then again, preparing eight different decks in GEMP, and submitting the decklists, is almost as easy as just submitting two.

I suppose that this suggestion is probably too late to be taken into consideration for this tournament. But for future online tournaments, I think it's worth discussing.

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by arebelspy »

Yeah, if I was an observer, I'd be a bit bummed too. It is obviously worse for them. But at the benefit of not harming those playing. And as you say, there will still be streams.

As to your suggestion, two problems:
1) it still benefits big teams more. I don't have to prepare a dozen decks if my team cracks out a bunch. Sure someone could netdeck extra decks, but it isn't the same

2) it enables me to prepare separate decks for separate opponents. That may or may not be something you like, but it's not something we have ever done in an in-person MPC.

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by Sagnet »

arebelspy wrote:
April 5th, 2020, 9:36 am
As to your suggestion, two problems:
1) it still benefits big teams more. I don't have to prepare a dozen decks if my team cracks out a bunch. Sure someone could netdeck extra decks, but it isn't the same
Again, you don't have to prepare multiple decks. The main advantage of my suggestion is that your opponent can't know for sure which cards you are playing, even if he (or his team mates) watched all your previous games. Maybe you're playing four slightly different variations of that TRM deck, so he should be very careful about leaving that Emperor's shuttle alone, or drawing a 20 card hand. Even if he didn't see any Tantive IV or Grimtaash in any of your previous games.

I mean, this would be a benefit in a real life MPC as well. If you're playing someone who's team mate you beat in a previous round, you can be pretty sure he's got some intel on your decks. And this problem is still at thing in this tournament. The guy who's on a team could receive screen shots of your decks, taken by his team mate in different verify situations. But if you had the option of running a different deck for each round, that guy with a big team won't have the same advantage. The team intel would not be of nearly the same value.

Of course, building eight real paper and plastic decks is a whole other ball game than adjusting eight different GEMP decks, so it won't be feasible in real life. But for an online event like this, it's completely doable.

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by CRG »

Will what decks people are playing be visible to those in the GEMP lobby? Or will it show something similar to what playtesting games have (just who is playing what side)?

(I don’t care either way, just curious.)
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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by rhendon »

Sagnet wrote:
April 5th, 2020, 10:03 am
arebelspy wrote:
April 5th, 2020, 9:36 am
As to your suggestion, two problems:
1) it still benefits big teams more. I don't have to prepare a dozen decks if my team cracks out a bunch. Sure someone could netdeck extra decks, but it isn't the same
Again, you don't have to prepare multiple decks. The main advantage of my suggestion is that your opponent can't know for sure which cards you are playing, even if he (or his team mates) watched all your previous games. Maybe you're playing four slightly different variations of that TRM deck, so he should be very careful about leaving that Emperor's shuttle alone, or drawing a 20 card hand. Even if he didn't see any Tantive IV or Grimtaash in any of your previous games.

I mean, this would be a benefit in a real life MPC as well. If you're playing someone who's team mate you beat in a previous round, you can be pretty sure he's got some intel on your decks. And this problem is still at thing in this tournament. The guy who's on a team could receive screen shots of your decks, taken by his team mate in different verify situations. But if you had the option of running a different deck for each round, that guy with a big team won't have the same advantage. The team intel would not be of nearly the same value.

Of course, building eight real paper and plastic decks is a whole other ball game than adjusting eight different GEMP decks, so it won't be feasible in real life. But for an online event like this, it's completely doable.
1. This wasn't meant to be an online event. It was meant to be a in person event. That event was cancelled like so many others and it is being done on GEMP to allow people to still sort of play in it as possible. We should try to mimic that event as much as possible rather than create a new one. This is literally one of the biggest events of the year for the PC. It isn't time to try out new tournament formats. We can run other events and try that out. Like we tried out a pod system to replace the standard match play of day 2 at Texas Mini Worlds one year.

2. Watching on Twitch > than watching on your own. The PC gains value from having people watch on Twitch and participate in Twitch. Us losing an in person event that draws a lot of viewers and not replacing it would be bad. Twitch has metrics and there are achievements that help the PC earn more revenue for literally having people watch games on it. The PC gains value in people subscribing with their free Amazon prime subscription. Literally 2 things that cost our community nothing gives the PC free money. That money can then be spent on prize support, better streaming equipment (although at this point Scott has literally purchased everything short of a production studio), and just better quality for the community overall, with things like GEMP being pushed to a better server, etc. If you have a question or want to see something better, type in chat. Either someone will answer or the commentators will see it and zoom click for you.

3. Players playing in the event should be given higher priority than those watching. From that discussion, you could see a lot of players playing in it were adamantly against decklists being posted and more in favor of what is done. This event was open to anyone to play in, I know Europe had a harder time with the start times, but Menzel showed the F it attitude.

4. Maybe we can try out a fall GEMP MPC event that mimics what you suggested and see how it goes. Hell, I'll even volunteer to run it and manage it. The more events we do online, the more events we can stream and commentate, the better for the community. Even if we are streaming replays of the events. It is still something that is providing people with content. It is something people can watch via Twitch or catch up on Youtube. Both places can then bring in revenue to the PC and depending on how many views it gets, it might drive in new people into the game. With the way the world is now, we have a really good opportunity to gain exposure and showcase the game. We have a really good online platform, something not every CCG has and it is really easy to learn on said platform.

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by Sagnet »

rhendon wrote:
April 5th, 2020, 10:33 am
1. This wasn't meant to be an online event. It was meant to be a in person event. That event was cancelled like so many others and it is being done on GEMP to allow people to still sort of play in it as possible. We should try to mimic that event as much as possible rather than create a new one. This is literally one of the biggest events of the year for the PC. It isn't time to try out new tournament formats. We can run other events and try that out. Like we tried out a pod system to replace the standard match play of day 2 at Texas Mini Worlds one year.

2. Watching on Twitch > than watching on your own. The PC gains value from having people watch on Twitch and participate in Twitch. Us losing an in person event that draws a lot of viewers and not replacing it would be bad. Twitch has metrics and there are achievements that help the PC earn more revenue for literally having people watch games on it. The PC gains value in people subscribing with their free Amazon prime subscription. Literally 2 things that cost our community nothing gives the PC free money. That money can then be spent on prize support, better streaming equipment (although at this point Scott has literally purchased everything short of a production studio), and just better quality for the community overall, with things like GEMP being pushed to a better server, etc. If you have a question or want to see something better, type in chat. Either someone will answer or the commentators will see it and zoom click for you.

3. Players playing in the event should be given higher priority than those watching. From that discussion, you could see a lot of players playing in it were adamantly against decklists being posted and more in favor of what is done. This event was open to anyone to play in, I know Europe had a harder time with the start times, but Menzel showed the F it attitude.

4. Maybe we can try out a fall GEMP MPC event that mimics what you suggested and see how it goes. Hell, I'll even volunteer to run it and manage it. The more events we do online, the more events we can stream and commentate, the better for the community. Even if we are streaming replays of the events. It is still something that is providing people with content. It is something people can watch via Twitch or catch up on Youtube. Both places can then bring in revenue to the PC and depending on how many views it gets, it might drive in new people into the game. With the way the world is now, we have a really good opportunity to gain exposure and showcase the game. We have a really good online platform, something not every CCG has and it is really easy to learn on said platform.
I get most of your points here. And increasing twitch and youtube activity is definitely a good thing. I would like to note the following, though:

1. I did not suggest that deck lists should be posted.

2. I understood the main concern to be about leveling the playing field between players that are part of a team, and players that don't know any of the other players in the tournament that well. As the format currently stands, the teams have a huge advantage from the fact that they can screenshot the decks they are playing against, and forward those images to their team mates who are playing against the same opponents later in the tournament. Creating and distributing this kind of intel is a lot easier and way more efficient to do online than in a real life tournament, where you would have to rely on memory and oral communication to do the same thing.

My suggestion removes this advantage by a significant degree. And please note that this suggestion can be implemented even if the games are blocked from observers, if the blocking is thought be a good thing for the streaming purposes alone. (However, I believe that the main argument for blocking observers was to prevent scouting, which the teams have more manpower to do than the solo players).

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by Corran »

Sagnet wrote:
April 5th, 2020, 11:07 am

2. I understood the main concern to be about leveling the playing field between players that are part of a team, and players that don't know any of the other players in the tournament that well. As the format currently stands, the teams have a huge advantage from the fact that they can screenshot the decks they are playing against, and forward those images to their team mates who are playing against the same opponents later in the tournament. Creating and distributing this kind of intel is a lot easier and way more efficient to do online than in a real life tournament, where you would have to rely on memory and oral communication to do the same thing.
Taking a screen shot of a deck during a verify and distributing it would be cheating, would it not? Are you accusing the big teams of cheating?
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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by Sagnet »

Corran wrote:
April 5th, 2020, 11:27 am
Sagnet wrote:
April 5th, 2020, 11:07 am

2. I understood the main concern to be about leveling the playing field between players that are part of a team, and players that don't know any of the other players in the tournament that well. As the format currently stands, the teams have a huge advantage from the fact that they can screenshot the decks they are playing against, and forward those images to their team mates who are playing against the same opponents later in the tournament. Creating and distributing this kind of intel is a lot easier and way more efficient to do online than in a real life tournament, where you would have to rely on memory and oral communication to do the same thing.
Taking a screen shot of a deck during a verify and distributing it would be cheating, would it not? Are you accusing the big teams of cheating?
No, this whole discussion has been about hypotheticals, hasn't it? It's about preventing opportunities to cheat, not accusing anyone of actually doing it.

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Re: Official Online MPC Rules

Post by arebelspy »

Corran wrote:
Sagnet wrote:
April 5th, 2020, 11:07 am

2. I understood the main concern to be about leveling the playing field between players that are part of a team, and players that don't know any of the other players in the tournament that well. As the format currently stands, the teams have a huge advantage from the fact that they can screenshot the decks they are playing against, and forward those images to their team mates who are playing against the same opponents later in the tournament. Creating and distributing this kind of intel is a lot easier and way more efficient to do online than in a real life tournament, where you would have to rely on memory and oral communication to do the same thing.
Taking a screen shot of a deck during a verify and distributing it would be cheating, would it not? Are you accusing the big teams of cheating?
Would it?

Can you point me to the rule that says that?

I am genuinely curious.

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