Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by Death Star »

imrahil327 wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 5:26 pm
Day 1: December 5 & 6
•Open to everyone
•Each player will have their choice of 4 different start times over the course of the first weekend (December 5-6). When you register, you will be asked for your first and second choices of pod to play in (people in the EST time-zone will be asked for their third as well.) We will guarantee that you will be in one of those pods. We're going to do our best to rebalance these pods (based on choice of start time, not strength of players) so that there are roughly even numbers in each pod. Also note that if a pod seems uniquely unpopular or there are not enough people, we reserve the right to contract/remove pods as necessary. All pod pairings and times will be finalized well in advance.
•The rough start times for these pods are:
-Saturday at 4am EST
-Saturday at 10am EST
-Sunday at 7am EST
-Sunday at 1pm EST
•Players will play a 6-game SOS tournament on Day 1, and anyone who finishes 4-2 or better will advance to Day 2.
Someone suggested on slack to post this in european time zone, so using the central european time zone and adding my estimate of 2 hours per round that would mean:

Saturday:
From 10am until about 10pm or
From 4pm until about 4am sunday

Sunday:
From 1pm until about 1am monday or
From 7pm until about 7am monday

Hopefully the end will be a bit earlier (especially in the last round you dont have to wait until the end of the round, you are finished after your last game) but I guess its better to be save than sorry.


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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by ketwol »

So since all European guys have the same time zone, if enough people join the first slot there might be more than 1 pod?

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by Death Star »

ketwol wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 5:06 am
So since all European guys have the same time zone, if enough people join the first slot there might be more than 1 pod?
No, I dont think that will happen. Though I agree, that if for example there are 60 ppl wanting into 1 time slot and only about 15 each into the other slots, it would not make sense to keep it at 4 different time slots. The posted schedule does mention the possibility to scrape 1 time slot if there is insufficient demand, but it does not (yet) mention the possibility to create 2 pods at roughly the same time. I guess that could still be decided once people stated their preferences.

Also I assume that not every european will want in that early saturday slot. There might be those with kids who prefer to take only half a day off their family and play into the night as a compromise. There might be those that have something even more important than SWCCG on saturday and take the early sunday slot instead. I agree it is the most likely slot for europeans, but far from the only one.
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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by quickdraw3457 »

Death Star wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 5:18 am
ketwol wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 5:06 am
So since all European guys have the same time zone, if enough people join the first slot there might be more than 1 pod?
No, I dont think that will happen. Though I agree, that if for example there are 60 ppl wanting into 1 time slot and only about 15 each into the other slots, it would not make sense to keep it at 4 different time slots. The posted schedule does mention the possibility to scrape 1 time slot if there is insufficient demand, but it does not (yet) mention the possibility to create 2 pods at roughly the same time. I guess that could still be decided once people stated their preferences.

Also I assume that not every european will want in that early saturday slot. There might be those with kids who prefer to take only half a day off their family and play into the night as a compromise. There might be those that have something even more important than SWCCG on saturday and take the early sunday slot instead. I agree it is the most likely slot for europeans, but far from the only one.
We specifically tried to time the pods so there were good options for every time zone. Between Europe, East Coast, and West coast, each has a 10AM local time start, just like major events that are held in those time zones. We tried to also give each one an alternate acceptable time, but it's quite difficult if we are limited to just 4 pods. More pods could mean they don't fill or the event takes longer, and fewer pods obviously wouldn't work. So we did the best we could with the time slots.

If there are suggestions, Schoe said in the OP that we may be able to make changes, so please provide feedback on start times if you don't think they are the ideal.
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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by rhendon »

Death Star wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:06 am
rhendon wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:00 pm
I think 45 minutes per player is ideal in the sense that the maximum the game can go is just under 1.5 hours or 1:29:59 to be exact.
That’s not how it works. And to Justin in the post above, that is already happening. That’s why a game in total can take longer than the timers at start combined.
With 50 minutes per player, expect to add about 20 minutes to the game in total for stuff that happens when no timer is running. So a maximum of 2 hours for the round.
I would expect that the last game of each round not going to 0 time for both players and posting the schedule, starting games cancel each other out on average, therefor I expect 12 hours for Day 1.
I hadn't noticed that happening. I've just always watched my clock drop when things are happening and it is my turn. Maybe it was just lag and the timer is doing as you guys said.

If that is also the case, then we shouldn't have a big need to keep timers that high at all. We should be able to drop them down to 35 minutes possibly. But we can experiment with this at a later date.

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by quickdraw3457 »

rhendon wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 9:07 am
Death Star wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:06 am
rhendon wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:00 pm
I think 45 minutes per player is ideal in the sense that the maximum the game can go is just under 1.5 hours or 1:29:59 to be exact.
That’s not how it works. And to Justin in the post above, that is already happening. That’s why a game in total can take longer than the timers at start combined.
With 50 minutes per player, expect to add about 20 minutes to the game in total for stuff that happens when no timer is running. So a maximum of 2 hours for the round.
I would expect that the last game of each round not going to 0 time for both players and posting the schedule, starting games cancel each other out on average, therefor I expect 12 hours for Day 1.
I hadn't noticed that happening. I've just always watched my clock drop when things are happening and it is my turn. Maybe it was just lag and the timer is doing as you guys said.

If that is also the case, then we shouldn't have a big need to keep timers that high at all. We should be able to drop them down to 35 minutes possibly. But we can experiment with this at a later date.
As someone who doesn't play much on gemp at all, if the timers were 35 minutes there is no chance I'd play. That is a blistering pace for playing on gemp and it would just result in me either making infinite mistakes as I try to click faster, or running out of time way too early in the game.
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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by rhendon »

quickdraw3457 wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 9:15 am
rhendon wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 9:07 am
Death Star wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:06 am
rhendon wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:00 pm
I think 45 minutes per player is ideal in the sense that the maximum the game can go is just under 1.5 hours or 1:29:59 to be exact.
That’s not how it works. And to Justin in the post above, that is already happening. That’s why a game in total can take longer than the timers at start combined.
With 50 minutes per player, expect to add about 20 minutes to the game in total for stuff that happens when no timer is running. So a maximum of 2 hours for the round.
I would expect that the last game of each round not going to 0 time for both players and posting the schedule, starting games cancel each other out on average, therefor I expect 12 hours for Day 1.
I hadn't noticed that happening. I've just always watched my clock drop when things are happening and it is my turn. Maybe it was just lag and the timer is doing as you guys said.

If that is also the case, then we shouldn't have a big need to keep timers that high at all. We should be able to drop them down to 35 minutes possibly. But we can experiment with this at a later date.
As someone who doesn't play much on gemp at all, if the timers were 35 minutes there is no chance I'd play. That is a blistering pace for playing on gemp and it would just result in me either making infinite mistakes as I try to click faster, or running out of time way too early in the game.
I don't play fast on GEMP either. But I still usually end up with 10-20 minutes left in my clock. Sometimes not, but those are games where I pause a lot and think on strategy. That is because that is time the clock gives me to do. But that is also time that could be eliminated for high end tournament play and put back on the player to figure out.

If I, and I am often reading cards on field all over the place and not hovering over the pass button, routinely end up with that much time left on my clocks, I'm curious if others do as well. If so, then that is easy waste of clock we could get rid of to help speed up rounds.

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by Hayes »

I love the 10 game format.

I am nervous, however, about how gemp will handle the significant periods of overlap for the initial weekend days (even without observers). Can someone allay my fears? Are there back enhancements that will help? Do we, right now, have a rough estimate for how many each slot might attract?

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by Hazardville »

rhendon wrote:
Death Star wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:06 am
rhendon wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:00 pm
I think 45 minutes per player is ideal in the sense that the maximum the game can go is just under 1.5 hours or 1:29:59 to be exact.
That’s not how it works. And to Justin in the post above, that is already happening. That’s why a game in total can take longer than the timers at start combined.
With 50 minutes per player, expect to add about 20 minutes to the game in total for stuff that happens when no timer is running. So a maximum of 2 hours for the round.
I would expect that the last game of each round not going to 0 time for both players and posting the schedule, starting games cancel each other out on average, therefor I expect 12 hours for Day 1.
I hadn't noticed that happening. I've just always watched my clock drop when things are happening and it is my turn. Maybe it was just lag and the timer is doing as you guys said.

If that is also the case, then we shouldn't have a big need to keep timers that high at all. We should be able to drop them down to 35 minutes possibly. But we can experiment with this at a later date.
As someone who doesn’t often time out but has in two high-ish profile instances in the past few months, I can confirm that this is not how it works. Player time absolutely does count down while the system is drawing destiny for them and neither player has a decision window so they’re both waiting on the system rather than each other. I know for certain this happened as I watched it occur while I was timing out.

If this has been changed recently, all the better, but I hadn’t heard that that was the case. I’ll watch for it in my next game.


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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by Jnapolit31 »

Hayes wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 10:58 am
I love the 10 game format.

I am nervous, however, about how gemp will handle the significant periods of overlap for the initial weekend days (even without observers). Can someone allay my fears? Are there back enhancements that will help? Do we, right now, have a rough estimate for how many each slot might attract?
Echo these sentiments, and my main reason for bringing up the timer was to help reduce the overlap period for each day.
Personally I think 50:00/side, even with the inherent "time" pluses/minuses with Gemp vs. IRL, is too much (especially w/ SOS).
Hopefully the Advocates/Tournament Committee/Dev Team have considered suspending all other Gemp games for these two days (or at least during the Worlds Pods overlap time?) to reduce load on the server.
Not sure there's enough "juice" to add to it, as quickdraw has mentioned was done previously, to completely eliminate lag?
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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by rhendon »

Jnapolit31 wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 12:29 pm
Hayes wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 10:58 am
I love the 10 game format.

I am nervous, however, about how gemp will handle the significant periods of overlap for the initial weekend days (even without observers). Can someone allay my fears? Are there back enhancements that will help? Do we, right now, have a rough estimate for how many each slot might attract?
Echo these sentiments, and my main reason for bringing up the timer was to help reduce the overlap period for each day.
Personally I think 50:00/side, even with the inherent "time" pluses/minuses with Gemp vs. IRL, is too much (especially w/ SOS).
Hopefully the Advocates/Tournament Committee/Dev Team have considered suspending all other Gemp games for these two days (or at least during the Worlds Pods overlap time?) to reduce load on the server.
Not sure there's enough "juice" to add to it, as quickdraw has mentioned was done previously, to completely eliminate lag?
Honestly, for worlds, I don't see why we couldn't stand up a new GEMP on a separate AWS instance for that weekend (think it would be paid for month though). That way worlds GEMP and regular GEMP aren't connected. Each person registered would be given an account and only those + streamers would be allowed on that server. With no observers, there shouldn't be a need for people to be logged in if they aren't playing in their pod/heat.

This would eliminate the fear of scouting + some of the stress on GEMP and just make it cleaner for all involved. If the AWS cost is too high though, then that would be a deal killer.

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by arebelspy »

Agree all non worlds games should be suspended with link in MOTD explaining.

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by Berm »

arebelspy wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 1:10 pm
Agree all non worlds games should be suspended with link in MOTD explaining.
As someone not playing in worlds. If there's an explanation and a link to twitch channels I wouldn't mind being unable to start a game during this time.

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by quickdraw3457 »

We may set up a stress test soon, stay tuned. But it sounds like the lag has been under control lately. We'll do what we can well in advance to do the best we can to make it a non-issue.
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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by Hayes »

quickdraw3457 wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:01 pm
We may set up a stress test soon, stay tuned. But it sounds like the lag has been under control lately. We'll do what we can well in advance to do the best we can to make it a non-issue.
While not computer illiterate, understanding of how the server(s) handle this load is beyond my comprehension. IIRC, for the MPC (or was it TMW?), there seemed to be a cumulative effect. I vaguely recall the AM games were mostly fine but the later games, even after the overlap ended, were somewhat borked. That is to say, I don't know that an hour long stress test will "prove" much when the issue seems to get progressively worse after 8+ hours.

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by rhendon »

Hayes wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:37 pm
quickdraw3457 wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:01 pm
We may set up a stress test soon, stay tuned. But it sounds like the lag has been under control lately. We'll do what we can well in advance to do the best we can to make it a non-issue.
While not computer illiterate, understanding of how the server(s) handle this load is beyond my comprehension. IIRC, for the MPC (or was it TMW?), there seemed to be a cumulative effect. I vaguely recall the AM games were mostly fine but the later games, even after the overlap ended, were somewhat borked. That is to say, I don't know that an hour long stress test will "prove" much when the issue seems to get progressively worse after 8+ hours.
Hayes is correct on this. The early games had less people on and were much better than the PM games for TMW. TMW Saturday got really really bad. So much so that players were constantly refreshing their games 10+ times in a game to keep going. The MPC I felt was spread out much better that maybe the 2nd pod had some more lag than first but it wasn't making me refresh like TMW. Felt bad watching Joe vs Kessling the 2nd time and watching the lag for them.

TMW also had a bunch more people on that weren't a part of TMW in the afternoon. I know on Sunday lag was better but still noticeable even though we changed viewer settings.

I know PC has put in a fix to help with it, but this is supposed to be worlds. It is supposed to be the big event. It would be a shame to have it ruined with lag at all to not pull out all the stops if possible. I'd hate to close off GEMP for casual players, so I'd say do a 2nd server but if that is too much, then that seems like the best option.

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by Jedicon »

Don't know if having a server restart Friday night and another one after the Saturday pods would help as well.

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by quickdraw3457 »

It's my understanding that some things were done to improve this since TMW but again, i'll check again and do what's necessary to mitigate it.
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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by rhendon »

quickdraw3457 wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 4:10 pm
It's my understanding that some things were done to improve this since TMW but again, i'll check again and do what's necessary to mitigate it.
I was getting some on Monday night playing Corran. He said he didn't notice anything but I noticed some clicks failing and that at times there would be a pause with my clock going down but there was no action waiting on me. I had passed and it was just stuck for a bit but then would return. It was pretty frustrating.

I'm on a gigabit connection that usually hovers around 600-700 mbps, so it shouldn't be me. But I'll admit I didn't check my speeds during the game.

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Re: Worlds Schedule & Format (Tentative)

Post by rhendon »

I would also recommend getting 2 TDs on for this along with a stream coordinator.

2 TDs because it will be a long day, even for the TD. One in morning and one at night.

Stream coordinator that can get everyone that wants to stream and make sure there is coverage. He doesn't need to do coverage, but at the least coordinate it with everyone to make sure we have as much as we can covered.

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