Player of the Year 2019

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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by gogolen »

added a few more states & regionals to the list. This should be everything prior to Worlds.

With the World Champ getting 20 points, there are still a bunch of people in contention.

and this year, the POY will also earn a special privilege...

(more details about that to come later)


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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by Silverglen »

Chris I think you have the welsh down as a regional - it should be provincial. Unless you wanted to give me extra points!
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by gogolen »

updated with what I believe to be the final standings after worlds. Please check over the list and let me know if there are any events that have not been included that should be.
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by allstarz97 »

seems right but maybe we should rethink the calculations? Like how is bastian not player of the year when he wins euros AND worlds?

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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by Death Star »

allstarz97 wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 7:49 am
seems right but maybe we should rethink the calculations? Like how is bastian not player of the year when he wins euros AND worlds?
Euros was pretty small this year, only 25 players.
Also Joe did pretty well at nearly all the events he attended this year, and he attended most majors, so way more than me.
I think
Top 4 at worlds - lost to the winner
Top 2 at US-continentals - lost to the winner
Top 8 at Endor GP - lost to the winner
Top 4 at OCS 2018

They only major he did not well was the MPC.

I think that is what the Player of the Year is for, to celebrate someone having an all-around great year, not necessarily by winning events.
Not piling it on top of whoever won worlds cause its the biggest event of the year.

So congratulations Joe, also on being the first player in the PC era to repeat as Player of the Year.
Though I would be curious why there was no POY in the era 2010-2012.
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by arebelspy »

Yeah, in the MPC lost in the round of 16 by 1 diff to Charlie. I also won WA states, but that was small, just 10 people (wirfs, Phil, and Jacy being the travelers in the group).

I had the same head scratcher before worlds when Gogolen updated and I was in the lead, without any wins. Realizing the OCS season counting for the following year since it finishes after worlds had it make more sense.

But yeah, it depends if we want to reward event winners more, or high finishers who attend more.

I can see arguments either way--the better year is the person who actually won events, or that it's better to encourage attendance.

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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by arebelspy »

Death Star wrote: So congratulations Joe.
Thanks Bastian!

Congrats for your top Euro finish. I'm looking forward to our upcoming competition. :)

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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by Death Star »

arebelspy wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 8:27 am
Yeah, in the MPC lost in the round of 16 by 1 diff to Charlie. I also won WA states, but that was small, just 10 people (wirfs, Phil, and Jacy being the travelers in the group).

I had the same head scratcher before worlds when Gogolen updated and I was in the lead, without any wins. Realizing the OCS season counting for the following year since it finishes after worlds had it make more sense.

But yeah, it depends if we want to reward event winners more, or high finishers who attend more.

I can see arguments either way--the better year is the person who actually won events, or that it's better to encourage attendance.
I got 20 points for winning worlds and you got 10 points for making the semifinal. Thats not a difference you can make up winning 2-3 states tournaments.
3rd place at worlds (10), 2nd place at a 61-player continentals (12) and 3rd/4th at the OCS (8)
being better than
1st place at worlds (20), 1st place at a 25-player continentals (8) and 9-16th at the OCS (-)
I think is totally ok.

The rest of the results (Endor GP, States) was just the cherry on top.
Sometimes a big tournament winner has a dominant performance at other events too and comes out ahead (like last year), sometimes the big winners don't attend many other tournaments or don't do that well there and someone else comes ahead who did consistently well (like this year seemingly). That's why we have those points and Chris counts and collects them all (thanks for the work!)
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by TacoBill »

Death Star wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 8:41 am
3rd/4th at the OCS (8)
9-16th at the OCS (-)
This is the only thing that strikes me as off, mostly because finishing in the top-16 of the OCS seems harder than say finishing second at a states event. Maybe there should be another tier that can account for the OCS and award points for 9-16, even if its only 1.
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by chriskelly »

Now that these standings affect the Outrider cup, I definitely agree with Bill. Making OCS playoffs should be worth a lot more, even if you’re 9-16.

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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by arebelspy »


Death Star wrote:
arebelspy wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 8:27 am
Yeah, in the MPC lost in the round of 16 by 1 diff to Charlie. I also won WA states, but that was small, just 10 people (wirfs, Phil, and Jacy being the travelers in the group).

I had the same head scratcher before worlds when Gogolen updated and I was in the lead, without any wins. Realizing the OCS season counting for the following year since it finishes after worlds had it make more sense.

But yeah, it depends if we want to reward event winners more, or high finishers who attend more.

I can see arguments either way--the better year is the person who actually won events, or that it's better to encourage attendance.
I got 20 points for winning worlds and you got 10 points for making the semifinal. Thats not a difference you can make up winning 2-3 states tournaments.
3rd place at worlds (10), 2nd place at a 61-player continentals (12) and 3rd/4th at the OCS (8)
being better than
1st place at worlds (20), 1st place at a 25-player continentals (8) and 9-16th at the OCS (-)
I think is totally ok.

The rest of the results (Endor GP, States) was just the cherry on top.
Sometimes a big tournament winner has a dominant performance at other events too and comes out ahead (like last year), sometimes the big winners don't attend many other tournaments or don't do that well there and someone else comes ahead who did consistently well (like this year seemingly). That's why we have those points and Chris counts and collects them all (thanks for the work!)
Makes sense. Cheers Bastian!

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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by arebelspy »

TacoBill wrote:
Death Star wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 8:41 am
3rd/4th at the OCS (8)
9-16th at the OCS (-)
This is the only thing that strikes me as off, mostly because finishing in the top-16 of the OCS seems harder than say finishing second at a states event. Maybe there should be another tier that can account for the OCS and award points for 9-16, even if its only 1.
Making top 16 is hard, and just to make it is more like "winning" a more local event.

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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by gogolen »

Something to suggest to the TC for 2020 scoring, good feedback
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by Wokling »

Nice work, Joe! You've crushed it this year.
chriskelly wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 9:10 am
Now that these standings affect the Outrider cup, I definitely agree with Bill. Making OCS playoffs should be worth a lot more, even if you’re 9-16.
What're the details for this Outrider cup?

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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by Silverglen »

arebelspy wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 9:11 am
TacoBill wrote:
Death Star wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 8:41 am
3rd/4th at the OCS (8)
9-16th at the OCS (-)
This is the only thing that strikes me as off, mostly because finishing in the top-16 of the OCS seems harder than say finishing second at a states event. Maybe there should be another tier that can account for the OCS and award points for 9-16, even if its only 1.
Making top 16 is hard, and just to make it is more like "winning" a more local event.
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by gogolen »

Wokling wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 10:21 am
Nice work, Joe! You've crushed it this year.
chriskelly wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 9:10 am
Now that these standings affect the Outrider cup, I definitely agree with Bill. Making OCS playoffs should be worth a lot more, even if you’re 9-16.
What're the details for this Outrider cup?
Those will be posted this weekend
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by Commander Fox »

So I'm just going to throw a few cents at this discussion as well.

Couple of points I'm going to say something about are:
- OCS (with regards to the top 9-16 getting points, and in general)
- Introducing a new "player number rank" (64+ player events)
- Thinking about the overall structure and tier ranks

OCS
I agree with the fact that it is a lot of work to get to the top-16 of the OCS. You either have to completely own a month or grind it down to the end. This should be rewarded. I believe that the solution to this would be addressed by creating a 64+ player event which will reward a top 16 performance. One can also think about giving a 0.5 POTY point to the two nominees per month (in addition to getting the top 16, because that would create a small difference between a "month winner" and a grinder who makes it to the top 16).
I believe that the OCS is currently rated as a major (x2) level event. Given how hard it is to perform in this that would seem justified. On the other hand, SWCCG is a card game and not a digital game. Playing on GEMP is a totally different experience than irl and I do believe that real life events should be rewarded better. So you see, that's a bit of a conundrum for me. Lastly the OCS is an event in which both USA and EU (and other continent) players can participate with a minimal CO2 footprint, which should be rewarded.... Moving on to the other points, maybe that helps...

A new player attendance rank (64+)

Currently we're having these segments:

Points are earned based on finish and attendance, in the following manner:
Tournaments with:
8 or fewer players- 1st place: 1 point
9-16 players- 1st place: 2 points, 2nd place: 1 point
17-24 players- 1st place: 3 points, 2nd place: 2 points, 3rd/4th place: 1 point
25-35 players- 1st place: 4 points, 2nd place: 3 points, 3rd/4th place: 2 points
36-47 players- 1st place: 6 points, 2nd place: 4 points, 3rd/4th place: 3 point, 5th-8th place: 2 points
48+ players- 1st place: 8 points, 2nd place: 6 points, 3rd/4th place 4 points, 5th-8th place: 2 points

I would like to make two changes:
- there should be a difference between the 36-47 and the 48+ POTY points for the places 5-8. I think we should make the difference a 0.5 point, so either make it 1.5 vs 2 or 2 vs 2.5.
- also adding a new rank of 64+ players will help with both the OCS top 16 points and reward the biggest events we might have: a full MPC bracket or an insane turnout at a continentals or worlds

This would look like the following

Points are earned based on finish and attendance, in the following manner:
Tournaments with:
8 or fewer players- 1st place: 1 point
9-16 players- 1st place: 2 points, 2nd place: 1 point
17-24 players- 1st place: 3 points, 2nd place: 2 points, 3rd/4th place: 1 point
25-35 players- 1st place: 4 points, 2nd place: 3 points, 3rd/4th place: 2 points
36-47 players- 1st place: 6 points, 2nd place: 4 points, 3rd/4th place: 3 point, 5th-8th place: 2 points
48-63 players- 1st place: 8 points, 2nd place: 6 points, 3rd/4th place 4 points, 5th-8th place: 2.5 points,
64+ players 1ste place 10 points, 2nd place 8 points, 3rd/4th place 6 points, 5th-8th place 3 points, 9-16 place 1 point

I have only awarded a single point to the 9-16 place for a 64+ tournament. Obviously one could argue that 9-16 place for a 48-63 player event can also be rewarded, or a bigger reward could be given (1.5 or 2 points). I went for 1 point because I believe we are currently holding on to a "top-8 playoff" structure, so that's the big thing.

By adding a 64+ player segment which rewards the top 16 the OCS manner is addressed.

Tier levels

Lastly I would like to address the Tier levels. We currently have this:

Leagues:
1st place: 2 points, 2nd place: 1 point

These points are then multiplied based on the tier level of the tournament, as follows:
Level 1 (States, Provincials, Mini Opens, Leagues, Holotable (OMTS) events, Major tournament Sunday Consolation events) : x1
Level 2 (Regionals, European Nationals): x1.5
Level 3 (Majors): x2
Level 4 (Worlds): x2.5

I believe there is merit to changing this to include a 5th level (worlds). While doing this the we can address the situation that in the current outrider cup selection there is a big difference between the total POTY points of the USA and EU delegations. Why? Because the number of majors (and turnout, which should be rewarded) is unevenly distributed. But, I am the first to admit that it is truly awesome that multiple US events per year bring about a large number of players, opposed to the EU events which generally only is one real big event per year. However, this difference is already reflected in the "attendance rankings" which gives more points to a higher turnout, by multiplying this difference to also include more higher ranking level tournaments (rank 3/4) this difference is only bigger which almost makes it impossible for a EU player to win if not travelling to the USA (and vice versa that's not the case).

I would suggest the following changes (but obviously it's not set in stone):

Leagues:
1st place: 2 points, 2nd place: 1 point

These points are then multiplied based on the tier level of the tournament, as follows:
Level 1 (States, Provincials, Mini Opens, Leagues, Holotable (OMTS) events, Major tournament Sunday Consolation events) : x1
Level 2 (Regionals, European Nationals): x1.5
Level 3 (Grand Prix): x2 (Grand prix's such as Endor, or Texas Mini and the OCS (because I believe that irl card gaming should be rewarded at least for the biggest tournaments we have. OCS is open to both continents however).
Level 4 (Majors): x2.5 = MPC (both continents can have one), Continentals (EU and USA)
Level 5 (Worlds): x3 (this alternates on a 1 to 4 basis or so between USA and EU)

This would let the USA player base keep (and rightfully reward) their distinct advantage for having an overall higher turnout per event and organising more bigger tournaments but it would also help levelling the field by giving both continents the chance (I'm not saying they need to organise it) to organise the same number of majors: 1 continental, 1 MPC.

I realise that USA continentals are generally only organised if the World is in Europe, but we could say that each continent can just "designate" one tournament to be the continental, for example the Endor Grand Prix which would thereby go up a rank to level 4 in the year that there is no specific continentals organised).

Perhaps one day the EU community will also have a chance to organise a Grand Prix. But let's see it then.


Okay, those were my two cents. Interested to hear how people feel about this. :popcrn:
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by Commander Fox »

gogolen wrote:
January 21st, 2019, 1:36 pm
gossuii wrote:Where do the 2018 League points go to? We had our 5th event in January 2019

last year's leagues ended with Worlds.
Not to whine about this (well just a little, little bit, but only because all of a sudden POTY points matter for the Outrider cup). Why is there a difference between this and the OCS playoffs? Currently the 2018 OCS counts for the 2019 POTY points but this 2018 league does not. That seems arbitrary to me.

Thanks for the explanation in advance!
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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by arebelspy »

Commander Fox wrote:
September 28th, 2019, 3:40 am
Not to whine about this (well just a little, little bit, but only because all of a sudden POTY points matter for the Outrider cup). Why is there a difference between this and the OCS playoffs? Currently the 2018 OCS counts for the 2019 POTY points but this 2018 league does not. That seems arbitrary to me.

Thanks for the explanation in advance!
My guess is that because worlds is the end of the year for earning points (not done on a calendar year), and leagues are held before that.

The ocs playoffs, the only part that awards points, is done entirely after worlds. E.g. it isn't earning points in part of one season, part of another.

If the OCS awarded points partly in one season, partly in another, the way a league bleeding over before/after would, it wouldn't work.

But now worlds is over, and now the ocs playoffs start, entirely in the next year's point calendar.

That being said, I do think leagues shouldn't then run by calendar year. Someone should be able to start a 2020 league as soon as worlds 2019 is over, and run it until worlds 2020. (Yes, that means a league 2020 event would be held in 2019, which is a little weird, but model cars for the next year are sold a year early, and plenty of sports have a year overlap, e.g. the 2013 seahawks won the superbowl in 2014).

Leagues should run on the worlds schedule, not a calendar schedule.

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Re: Player of the Year 2019

Post by Commander Fox »

arebelspy wrote:
September 28th, 2019, 11:02 am
Commander Fox wrote:
September 28th, 2019, 3:40 am
Not to whine about this (well just a little, little bit, but only because all of a sudden POTY points matter for the Outrider cup). Why is there a difference between this and the OCS playoffs? Currently the 2018 OCS counts for the 2019 POTY points but this 2018 league does not. That seems arbitrary to me.

Thanks for the explanation in advance!
My guess is that because worlds is the end of the year for earning points (not done on a calendar year), and leagues are held before that.

The ocs playoffs, the only part that awards points, is done entirely after worlds. E.g. it isn't earning points in part of one season, part of another.

If the OCS awarded points partly in one season, partly in another, the way a league bleeding over before/after would, it wouldn't work.

But now worlds is over, and now the ocs playoffs start, entirely in the next year's point calendar.

That being said, I do think leagues shouldn't then run by calendar year. Someone should be able to start a 2020 league as soon as worlds 2019 is over, and run it until worlds 2020. (Yes, that means a league 2020 event would be held in 2019, which is a little weird, but model cars for the next year are sold a year early, and plenty of sports have a year overlap, e.g. the 2013 seahawks won the superbowl in 2014).

Leagues should run on the worlds schedule, not a calendar schedule.
Agreed with the idea to run leagues parallel to the poty/worlds schedule!
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