The Problem with LSJK

SWCCG game play discussion.
Post Reply
Corran
Reflections Gold
Reflections Gold
Posts: 2867
Joined: June 20th, 2004, 4:53 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
GEMP Username: corran
Contact:

The Problem with LSJK

Post by Corran »

Regardless of what I think about the competitive balance of this card, it feels bad that a uniquely designed card is really hard to obtain, and losing to it at an event feels bad especially if I'm playing a deck that probably should include it. We're at a point where even if someone had several hundred dollars to buy a few LSJKs they couldn't. The established stores are consistently sold out, and Ebay usually has exactly 1 copy listed at $150 in Italy.

As the game gets older, card availability is going to continue to go down, but LSJK and to a lesser extent Emperor Palpatine are in a league of their own. The obvious solution seems like it would be to design a virtual version of these two characters with destiny 6, but the PC doesn't seem to want to do this. Has anyone ever suggested a restricted list, only allowing 1x of certain cards in the deck?

I know that proxies can't be legal per the PC's agreement, but it's a shame there isn't a way to make an exception for cards that sell for more than $100 a piece. Also, I hate borrowing cards. Since I've been in and out of the community so many times, and always have to travel for events, I don't know people as well as other people know people, which makes the prospect of borrowing cards more complicated.

Maybe the solution is just that I have to make creative deckbuilding decisions and/or play decks that don't use these cards(or use the 1x LSJK that I somehow obtained recently). That's fine, but it seems like there should be a better solution, especially since it's so few cards.


Check out Bad Deck Breakdowns, a Star Wars CCG Deckbuilding podcast, on the podcatcher of your choice or https://www.kendallcast.ninja
dvphimself wrote: https://www.twitch.tv/kendallcastnetwork/ is my favourite SWCCG channel.
seitaer wrote: Corran's streams are great, even if he likes the last jedi

User avatar
quesosauce37
LS Region: Tatooine
LS Region: Tatooine
Posts: 13362
Joined: November 8th, 2007, 6:16 pm
Location: North Denver
GEMP Username: quesosauce

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by quesosauce37 »

this is still a collectible card game, and there should be harder to get cards, imo

the 'problem' with lsjk is LMFBM, if you look at decklists from before that card came out, and at the entire run of legacy which never had that card, decks that ran 4-5 LSJKs just never happened, maybe some guy had a combat deck or something that ran a bunch, but due to his deploy cost in that deck id doubt that deck was much good

Stiffy Luke was king, and he was on a common card(and destiny 1), then you had space luke and speeder luke and master luke for the decks that want them
Jerry H

Image Image

Corran
Reflections Gold
Reflections Gold
Posts: 2867
Joined: June 20th, 2004, 4:53 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
GEMP Username: corran
Contact:

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by Corran »

quesosauce37 wrote:this is still a collectible card game, and there should be harder to get cards, imo

the 'problem' with lsjk is LMFBM, if you look at decklists from before that card came out, and at the entire run of legacy which never had that card, decks that ran 4-5 LSJKs just never happened, maybe some guy had a combat deck or something that ran a bunch, but due to his deploy cost in that deck id doubt that deck was much good

Stiffy Luke was king, and he was on a common card(and destiny 1), then you had space luke and speeder luke and master luke for the decks that want them
I agree that the chase and investment and everything is part of the game, but LSJK and Emperor Palpatine are just so far ahead of everyone else. Admittedly, in the Legacy era Luke, SiTF was popular, but LSJK still saw play, if not 4-5 copies, 2-3 copies. Also, for much of the Legacy era, LSJK went for under $60. Losing to LSJK feels so much worse now that it goes for $150 than it did then.

I dunno, maybe I'm just pittying myself because I had a little cash set aside to buy a second LSJK and then had unexpected expenses and found that he was selling for more than I thought.
Check out Bad Deck Breakdowns, a Star Wars CCG Deckbuilding podcast, on the podcatcher of your choice or https://www.kendallcast.ninja
dvphimself wrote: https://www.twitch.tv/kendallcastnetwork/ is my favourite SWCCG channel.
seitaer wrote: Corran's streams are great, even if he likes the last jedi

rsersen
Booster Box
Booster Box
Posts: 1693
Joined: January 28th, 2017, 3:42 pm
Location: Hanover, PA
GEMP Username: rsersen
Contact:

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by rsersen »

Corran wrote:Also, I hate borrowing cards. Since I've been in and out of the community so many times, and always have to travel for events, I don't know people as well as other people know people, which makes the prospect of borrowing cards more complicated.
+1. Borrowing cards is a great solution for those who know everyone (and are known themselves) in the community. It's not as feasible for new players or those attending their first real events. If anyone looks at my LS decklist for EGP and wonders why I was running 2x LSJK and 1x YS, instead of 3x LSJK, it's for this exact reason. Luckily it didn't impact any of the games I played, but was still a sub-optimal build because I didn't know who to talk to about borrowing cards, and didn't feel comfortable mass-PMing a bunch of strangers to see if they'd be willing to lend $100 cards to another stranger. And then there's also concerns about what happens if that person drops out at the 11th hour, or flat-out forgets to bring what you need, etc.

I know there are individuals who have massive collections of Palps, LSJKs, etc, and are more than willing to lend them out. One idea might be to go a step further and donate/lend those to the PC, and have a "card library" of sorts that people can rent from for an event. Can have a thread posted a couple weeks beforehand with the available cards, and players can claim them first-come first-serve. The TD (or an advocate at the event) would have the cards, players can check them out the night before or morning of, return them afterwards, and then the library gets shipped to the next major.

Granted there are logistical hurdles here, and it's yet another thing that the PC would need to maintain when they're already busy collecting decklists, generating pairings, setting up streams, etc. So maybe that cost outweighs the benefits. But from a NARP's perspective, there's a big difference in borrowing cards from the PC as an organization, compared to asking individuals.
this is still a collectible card game, and there should be harder to get cards, imo
I would have agreed with this 20 years ago, but with the community already as small as it is, rarity/expense seems like a totally unnecessary barrier to entry. Games today should be decided by skill level (either as a player, as a deck-builder, or both) and a bit of luck, not "I had $500 in disposable income for ultra-rares and you didn't, sucks for you."
arebelspy wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 10:16 pm
Agree with Ryan.
Image

Image

Corran
Reflections Gold
Reflections Gold
Posts: 2867
Joined: June 20th, 2004, 4:53 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
GEMP Username: corran
Contact:

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by Corran »

quesosauce37 wrote: Stiffy Luke was king, and he was on a common card(and destiny 1), then you had space luke and speeder luke and master luke for the decks that want them
I just skimmed the 2014 Nationals Day 1 decklists and, while many were completely illegible, I'm pretty sure I was the only one running 2x Luke Strong in the Force. Many decks ran 1x of either LSJK or SiTF and some ran a mix of both, but there were more LSJKs played than SiTF. I want to be clear, I lost games in 2014 to players in the 0-2 bracket who played LSJK that I feel like I might have beaten had I not been playing a budget build of whatever garbage I was playing at the time. The reason that feeling is worse now is more due to the crazy increase in price of LSJK over the last few years.

I will say that, after looking at those lists I wonder why we don't see more traditional immunity Mains builds with Saitor/Blaster Rack these days.
Check out Bad Deck Breakdowns, a Star Wars CCG Deckbuilding podcast, on the podcatcher of your choice or https://www.kendallcast.ninja
dvphimself wrote: https://www.twitch.tv/kendallcastnetwork/ is my favourite SWCCG channel.
seitaer wrote: Corran's streams are great, even if he likes the last jedi

User avatar
quesosauce37
LS Region: Tatooine
LS Region: Tatooine
Posts: 13362
Joined: November 8th, 2007, 6:16 pm
Location: North Denver
GEMP Username: quesosauce

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by quesosauce37 »

Corran wrote:
quesosauce37 wrote: Stiffy Luke was king, and he was on a common card(and destiny 1), then you had space luke and speeder luke and master luke for the decks that want them
I just skimmed the 2014 Nationals Day 1 decklists and, while many were completely illegible, I'm pretty sure I was the only one running 2x Luke Strong in the Force. Many decks ran 1x of either LSJK or SiTF and some ran a mix of both, but there were more LSJKs played than SiTF. I want to be clear, I lost games in 2014 to players in the 0-2 bracket who played LSJK that I feel like I might have beaten had I not been playing a budget build of whatever garbage I was playing at the time. The reason that feeling is worse now is more due to the crazy increase in price of LSJK over the last few years.

I will say that, after looking at those lists I wonder why we don't see more traditional immunity Mains builds with Saitor/Blaster Rack these days.
2014 was the last year of legacy correct? I had pretty much stopped playing by that point, but legacy had a MUCH better diversity of Lukes than we have now in open

the reason why you dont see saitor/blaster rack is because of cards like LMFBM, IAYF and Jedi Biz, and the lack of Quick Draw v and Gift of the Mentor
Jerry H

Image Image

swatt9999
Booster Box
Booster Box
Posts: 950
Joined: January 15th, 2015, 11:27 am
Location: Chicago
GEMP Username: FsuSwatt

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by swatt9999 »

agreed but it all relates to that massive power creep of decipher back in the day! nothing beat that jedi luke pull!

since i got back into the game (around 4 years ago), and previously having owned 1 emperor (and lost him) i made it a point to try to build up a UR collection slowly but surely. literally did whatever it took, trade/purchase/combo of the two. but i never paid full price for either. you just need to be patient/find good sellers/negotiate...

I made sure to get either at a decent price (best was $80, average prob $90ish). and over the years i was able to achieve that goal. Took many cards to trade and cash of course but a 1-2 copies a year got the job done.

i'm up to 5x luke now (3 non, 2 foil) & 4x emperors (2 foil, 2 non) and couldnt be happier for the collection.

at this point i will only try to get more at a steal of a price.

AdmiralMotti89
Reflections Gold
Reflections Gold
Posts: 2015
Joined: February 28th, 2016, 3:38 pm
Location: Nebraska, USA

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by AdmiralMotti89 »

swatt9999 wrote: since i got back into the game (around 4 years ago), and previously having owned 1 emperor (and lost him)
:shock:
Eric Garchow
My eBay Store 10% off orders of 10+ items, plus free shipping on orders of $50+
My Trade Thread
My videos/photos of opening sealed SWCCG + other SWCCG things.
My Frequently Updating SWCCG Wants List

User avatar
SolaGratia
Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: July 14th, 2012, 7:08 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by SolaGratia »

quesosauce37 wrote:
Corran wrote:
quesosauce37 wrote:I will say that, after looking at those lists I wonder why we don't see more traditional immunity Mains builds with Saitor/Blaster Rack these days.
the reason why you dont see saitor/blaster rack is because of cards like LMFBM, IAYF and Jedi Biz, and the lack of Quick Draw v and Gift of the Mentor
saito/blaster rack don't get played because the legacy verbiage to "lose 1 force" to get a lightsaber back from lost pile (or corresponding effects) was removed in the reset. card cost makes it tough to play these cards and then add in the new alternates LMFBM/IAYF/JediBiz now they are waste of vslips.

User avatar
quesosauce37
LS Region: Tatooine
LS Region: Tatooine
Posts: 13362
Joined: November 8th, 2007, 6:16 pm
Location: North Denver
GEMP Username: quesosauce

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by quesosauce37 »

SolaGratia wrote:
quesosauce37 wrote:
Corran wrote:
quesosauce37 wrote:I will say that, after looking at those lists I wonder why we don't see more traditional immunity Mains builds with Saitor/Blaster Rack these days.
the reason why you dont see saitor/blaster rack is because of cards like LMFBM, IAYF and Jedi Biz, and the lack of Quick Draw v and Gift of the Mentor
saito/blaster rack don't get played because the legacy verbiage to "lose 1 force" to get a lightsaber back from lost pile (or corresponding effects) was removed in the reset. card cost makes it tough to play these cards and then add in the new alternates LMFBM/IAYF/JediBiz now they are waste of vslips.
that text was on quick draw/gift of the mentor not saitor/rack

its proof that just getting the matching weapon isnt enough, its the ability to make sure you get the same weapon on the same character several times per game with out running an obscene amount of extra copies that makes a top deck work.
Jerry H

Image Image

User avatar
SolaGratia
Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: July 14th, 2012, 7:08 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by SolaGratia »

quesosauce37 wrote:
SolaGratia wrote:
quesosauce37 wrote:
Corran wrote:
quesosauce37 wrote:I will say that, after looking at those lists I wonder why we don't see more traditional immunity Mains builds with Saitor/Blaster Rack these days.
the reason why you dont see saitor/blaster rack is because of cards like LMFBM, IAYF and Jedi Biz, and the lack of Quick Draw v and Gift of the Mentor
saito/blaster rack don't get played because the legacy verbiage to "lose 1 force" to get a lightsaber back from lost pile (or corresponding effects) was removed in the reset. card cost makes it tough to play these cards and then add in the new alternates LMFBM/IAYF/JediBiz now they are waste of vslips.
that text was on quick draw/gift of the mentor not saitor/rack

its proof that just getting the matching weapon isnt enough, its the ability to make sure you get the same weapon on the same character several times per game with out running an obscene amount of extra copies that makes a top deck work.
Exactly, hence right now LMFBM builds either run 1 extra saber or just use Wokling (v) to make sure they can get the saber back out (good for 2 deploys a game) and IAMYFv allows the getting it back. For awhile I ran the R3 QGJ in Whap since he could get his stick back but other than that matching weapons is mostly out of the meta. I also miss me some Gunrunners!!!

I'll step out so this can get back on OP track.

Corran
Reflections Gold
Reflections Gold
Posts: 2867
Joined: June 20th, 2004, 4:53 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
GEMP Username: corran
Contact:

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by Corran »

Yeah I totally forgot about Quick Draw. It was all EPPs before Quick Draw.
Check out Bad Deck Breakdowns, a Star Wars CCG Deckbuilding podcast, on the podcatcher of your choice or https://www.kendallcast.ninja
dvphimself wrote: https://www.twitch.tv/kendallcastnetwork/ is my favourite SWCCG channel.
seitaer wrote: Corran's streams are great, even if he likes the last jedi

User avatar
Cam Solusar
Member
Posts: 16871
Joined: November 23rd, 2002, 7:57 pm
Location: Sunny Southern California

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by Cam Solusar »

It feels to me like this discussion is inextricably linked with the strength of LMFBM. As others have mentioned, prior to that card 1-2x LSJK was enough for a collection, assuming you were ok not building LSC. Emperor was more of an issue historically.
Camden Y, Southern California
BrenDerlin wrote:These movies aren't called Star Battles, yo.

Remaker
Member
Posts: 1891
Joined: March 28th, 2008, 6:39 pm
Location: pittsburgh

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by Remaker »

Corran wrote:
I know that proxies can't be legal per the PC's agreement
ive played with my 5th lsjk as a printout for a while now. seemsfine

User avatar
ketwol
Member
Posts: 324
Joined: February 22nd, 2017, 8:09 am
Location: Munich (Germany)
GEMP Username: ketwol

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by ketwol »

Just print & borrow for tournies. Should do the job, and people in the community are great and helpful.

Since I did not play in Legacy, what was the gametext of Stiffy Luke?

Remaker
Member
Posts: 1891
Joined: March 28th, 2008, 6:39 pm
Location: pittsburgh

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by Remaker »

ketwol wrote:Just print & borrow for tournies. Should do the job, and people in the community are great and helpful.

Since I did not play in Legacy, what was the gametext of Stiffy Luke?
https://www.starwarsccg.org/cardlists/VMasterType.html

AdmiralMotti89
Reflections Gold
Reflections Gold
Posts: 2015
Joined: February 28th, 2016, 3:38 pm
Location: Nebraska, USA

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by AdmiralMotti89 »

ketwol wrote:Just print & borrow for tournies. Should do the job, and people in the community are great and helpful.

Since I did not play in Legacy, what was the gametext of Stiffy Luke?
Spoiler
Show
Image
Eric Garchow
My eBay Store 10% off orders of 10+ items, plus free shipping on orders of $50+
My Trade Thread
My videos/photos of opening sealed SWCCG + other SWCCG things.
My Frequently Updating SWCCG Wants List

User avatar
darkjediknight11
Communications Advocate
Posts: 22980
Joined: April 17th, 2005, 5:26 pm
Location: Chicago
GEMP Username: djk11

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by darkjediknight11 »

Remaker wrote:
Corran wrote:
I know that proxies can't be legal per the PC's agreement
ive played with my 5th lsjk as a printout for a while now. seemsfine
in case anyone else thinks this is ok...no, proxies are not tournament legal, and remaker will now receive mandatory deck checks at all events

Image

User avatar
stimpy
Member
Posts: 1152
Joined: May 3rd, 2010, 9:17 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by stimpy »

No love for RSTv, my favorite legacy deck. :( imagine lsjk combined with scum retrieval. That’s the reason I got my lukes back in the day.

I will say, I just don’t understand the logic that it feels worse losing to a card based on how expensive it is?

Regarding borrowing- some people say “just borrow” like there’s nothing to it, others say they don’t feel comfortable asking at all- the reality is somewhere in between. There are some difficulties in borrowing, particularly lsjk may not be available, but also some people do forget to bring stuff, and it can be a stresser when you’re trying to pull your deck together and the tourney is about to start. On the other hand, if you are unable to bring yourself to ask, then that’s on you. Most people will loan cards, even to complete strangers, at their risk. They just need to know there is a need.

User avatar
Cam Solusar
Member
Posts: 16871
Joined: November 23rd, 2002, 7:57 pm
Location: Sunny Southern California

Re: The Problem with LSJK

Post by Cam Solusar »

stimpy wrote:No love for RSTv, my favorite legacy deck. :( imagine lsjk combined with scum retrieval. That’s the reason I got my lukes back in the day.
Ohh, that was such a fun deck!

I think the PC has done a generally good job of reducing need of multiple copies of expensive cards. The whap effect means you only need 2x amidala 1x panaka (deck needed 4x amidala 3x panaka back in the day). Droideka means you only need 3-5 destroyer droids (deck needed 9x back in the day). There are some exceptions like invasion blasters, but those are not as iconic or prevalent as mains with LSJK. If you want to play big guys with lightsabers you're at a disadvantage if you don't own at least 4x LSJK. And I don't think Young Skywalker fixed the problem, even though it was purpose-designed as a cheaper alternative to LSJK--by comparison, droideka is arguably stronger than destroyer droid for DD invasion. No deck playing LMFBM is playing anything other than LSJK if they can help it.
Camden Y, Southern California
BrenDerlin wrote:These movies aren't called Star Battles, yo.

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”