dorshe1 wrote: Hazardville wrote: Cam Solusar wrote:
Rebort wrote:So this is just a new DnD philosophy then? What about legacy? We were completely fine without LSJK being as prominent as he is today.
I think legacy got LSJK better than we do today. A big reason was the existence of Luke SITF. The only exception I think was wysv, which needed 3x LSJK as I mentioned previously. But 3 is less than 4/5, which is really what you need for a top tier no compromise mains deck nowadays. I think we got OA (which reintroduced concepts used by wys v) correct by making it one of the cheapest decks out there to build without compromise. There really isn't an alternative for mains without compromising somehow.
I think reasoning behind not making a cheap equivalent of LSJK really clashes with decisions like not using ltww as the underlying card for rescue in the clouds v. Cost and availability had to have been factors there. I think it would be very easy to make the LSJK equivalent of a Droideka for people who like mains and don't want to compromise on power.
The compromise is the biggest issue for me. If playing YS didn’t feel like hobbling myself competitively, I’d say we could leave things as they are. But it does, and I don’t necessarily think the design of YS is to blame.
I don’t really understand the resistance to making changes to LMFBM to make LSJK not the default beat choice. We don’t need to make LSJK unplayable, just not make him hands-down better than all the other options. I feel like a number of the suggestions in other threads do that, but for whatever reason it seems like a non-starter.
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Literally, what do you expect DD to do. Nerf LMFBM right now? What will that accomplish other than make it so LS has no competitive options at all?
1) Expensive cards is NOT a balance issue.
2) The design team has worked hard to put most new v-cards on cheap, and readily accessible cards
3) There are at least two other platforms that have solid win percentages other than TRM / Hitco (OA and Diplo) and multiple other decks that are competitive without LSJK even if they are not the cream of the crop.
4) It has been said over, and over, and over, that at major events there is plenty of availability to borrow these cards.
5) In smaller events it is likely not an issue due to other *cough* p-word *cough* availability.
So, it it isn't a balance issue, there are other competitive decks and for major events there are likely enough copies to be had if you put in the work ahead of time. There is not an actual issue here. Also, design has not said that they aren't aware of the issue, they are focusing on making other platforms stronger so that there are other tier 1 options for LS in case you don't like the mains play style or don't want to borrow cards. And what happens when they spoil cards to help other LS platforms (Holdo, QMC) they get torn to shreds for 'INSERT RANDOM REASON HERE.'
Literally, yes, I expect DD to address a problem card that many feel is overpowered and is representing a real issue to the acquisition of new players, which seems to me like it should be something the community ought to care about.
I feel like this is an area where there's a critical difference between a New Player and a Returning Player. A New player is starting from literal nothing and trying to build a collection to be able to play a great but very complicated game in which they know many of the players involved have decades of experience over them. That's already a big hurdle, and every single time a deck with "Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight x4" is played to a top-performing finish, it makes that hurdle that much higher, because now you're asking the New player to make a $500 investment in order to play the "best deck."
This has always been my problem. I really love that mains decks are a thing (when I think Star Wars, I don't think Clakdor VII Operative x32). And the Dark Side has a number of really strong implementations of that strategy, between Hunt Down, CCT, Endor Ops, Watto, various CRv platforms, and so on. But DS gets to do that because the Emperor is a 1x or 2x card in most of those decks, and a utility piece at that. Vader and Maul the bad-asses that people play mains to play with, and while the best versions of them are not super cheap (arguably, Emperor's Enforcer might be the best Vader right now), they are in an acquirable price range. LS does not have that feature. If you are a New player who is buying into this game for the first time and you want to play mains and feel competitive, you're SOL.
Look, I think Jedi Business is a really cool card, and I played Jedi Business Profit at MPC, which was a really fun deck. It also constantly felt woefully underpowered and like I was playing a worse deck than I could be at a tournament I had to fly to, get a hotel, and take time off work to attend. Now, I'd be the first to admit that I've got a lot to learn as a player, so it's very possible I was just playing badly, but that feeling is one I don't have when playing TRM, and I don't think it's because I made a quantum leap in playskill in a month. If nothing else, there's a reason no one else is really playing Profit now, or TIGIH, or almost any non-LMFBM mains platform. Yes, EBO, OA, and Diplo see a lot of play, but if you want to play mains, it's LSJK x4 or bust. Feel free to prove me wrong by playing Jedi Business, or Profit, or Hyperdrive, or some other non-LSJK mains platform at Continentals or Worlds.
This is a real issue for New Players that I feel is being swept under the rug. Yeah, a returning player who still has friends in the game from back when they played a decade ago might be able to find enough people to borrow 4 LSJK from, but a new player who knows nobody? If I didn't happen to live an hour away from quesosauce with a strong growing community in CO, I don't know if I'd even have gone to MPC, as I wouldn't have been able to play any decks I really wanted to. Yes, I fully recognize that the community exceeded my outsider expectations, and borrowing cards is definitely a possibility, but it also feels like a crutch. What if we get to a meta like the Black Sun Worlds, where everyone is playing 6 Emperors and 5 Lukes? Does a significant part of the community have 10 Lukes so they can lend someone else a deck?
Let's also clear something up: does LS have lots of competitive options, or not? You said that tweaking, or even nerfing, LMFBM will "make it so LS has no competitive options at all," implying that every non-LMFBM deck is trash, and then immediately say that LS has 2+ other strong platforms amidst a myriad of other options, in which case completely killing LMFBM (which I don't think anyone is really advocating) wouldn't even matter b/c there's a host of alternatives. Which is it? It certainly can't be both.
I also want to say, I do think the PC has done a great job with putting virtual cards on cheap cards whenever possible. The problem price-wise here is the Decipher card LSJK, not that the PC made a $50 virtual card or anything like that, at least not in the current environment. I do kinda wish the Finalizer wasn't on the Executor and was instead of any random common, but if that's the biggest complaint, I think that sings high praises of the PC.
I realize people like this card, and I don't mind that. By all means, play it if it's your favorite card. I just don't think we need to artificially make it the Best Card In the Game. It kind of already is without help. I feel like LMFBM makes Young Skywalker and Luke Rebel Scout total wastes, because LSJK is so much better than either of those cards with the boosts from LMFBM that there's no reason to play them. Virtually no one does, and the decklists from majors bear that out. I don't think it's a huge ask for DD to slightly tweak a helper card that already barely needs to exist in order to make the decision of which DSII Luke to play an actual decision. Play LSJK if you want, I have no interest in stopping you, but I'd like to not feel like I'm wasting my time when I want to try Young Skywalker instead.