Tournament Menu Suggestions

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Gergall
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by Gergall »

JediJer wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 2:34 pm
What's easier when trying to see if there's any events going on on a particular weekend, looking through 20-30 topics in a forum or looking at a calendar?
The calendar is far superior if people put the content on there.

You know more about the redesign than I do. You have a little bit of "inside information" about what to expect.

Based on what you know, do you believe that it's going to happen this time? That this will be the time everyone starts filing their content into WordPress?

And can we place a $100 wager on it? ;)


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rsersen
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by rsersen »

Is there a middle ground where the tournament menu links could be redirected to the appropriate sub-forums for now, while the redesign is being worked on in the background? And as those areas of the site are updated, the community can view them (even if that means just posting direct links here), provide feedback, populate it with some current content, etc, and then revert the menu links at a later date?

Over the next four weeks we have at least four events, including two major tournaments and a world championship. There will probably be a dozen or more TRs written. None of them will go on WordPress, no matter how much we talk about it. And anybody who hears about these events through other channels (like members of the FB group who aren't active forum members) and comes looking for more info will find nothing, unless they a) know to go to the forums, and b) which sub-forum to go to.

Just seems like a very avoidable waste of traffic.

Also keep in mind that eventually killerkiwi is going to drop a full-blown documentary about this game and our community, that we all hope will bring in tons of new visitors. That's not as immediate of a concern, but when it happens, we really need to have more to show than an empty calendar and a couple newsletters from 2017. So it'd be nice if this age-old debate between "it's up to the community to make the front page work" vs "the webmaster needs to lean into what the community does" gets solved before then.
Last edited by rsersen on August 21st, 2019, 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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quickdraw3457
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by quickdraw3457 »

The menu hasn't been updated because the main page was supposed to be updated a few weeks ago, but we've consistently run into issues preventing it. It's still supposed to happen soon if we can win the game of whack a mole with word press.
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Hunter wrote:quickdraw is right

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Gergall
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by Gergall »

quickdraw3457 wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 3:29 pm
The menu hasn't been updated because the main page was supposed to be updated a few weeks ago, but we've consistently run into issues preventing it. It's still supposed to happen soon if we can win the game of whack a mole with word press.
rsersen makes a good point though, is there any chance of taking 15 minutes to point those links at the forums until whack-a-mole is over?
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arebelspy
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by arebelspy »

JediJer wrote:The new home page design will do a much better job of making it easier to get to content.

However, if the community isn't involved in making that part of our site active and keeping it alive, then it will fail.

You can build the most state of the art amusement park in the world, but if all the kids want to keep playing on their playground, the amusement park will fail.

I find it ironic that the community is bringing up the fact that the articles and other things outside of the forums are outdated. In order for those things to be up to date, then THE COMMUNITY HAS TO CONTRIBUTE TO IT.

We are trying to get things in one place, but I think Trek's site is all custom built. We don't have that luxury, as we don't have access to their system and with the exception of vkit and scomp link, everything we have is "off the shelf". It's different platforms and trying to get it all together isn't going to be easy (or may not even be possible in some cases).

Forums are great for interactive discussions. I'm not going to argue that. For less interactive content though, we should all be trying to contribute to keep those aspects alive and up to date as much as possible.

Want to post a TR, make a post in WordPress.
Want to write articles about decks (primers, deck tech type stuff, etc.), make a post in WordPress.
Want to put an event on the calendar, make a post in WordPress
Want to find the abbreviation guide, look in WordPress
Want to find the latest errata, look in WordPress
Want to find an event, look in WordPress
Want to find the latest set pdf, look in WordPress
Want to read about the design process from someone on D&D, look in WordPress

Yeah, all those things are done in the forums, but WordPress can do them just as well, and in some ways do it better.
What's easier when trying to see if there's any events going on on a particular weekend, looking through 20-30 topics in a forum or looking at a calendar?

WordPress can make it easier to find content than on the forums. If posts, articles, events, etc. are properly tagged, then finding them is a lot easier than finding them on the forum. You can search by category and find all decklist posts in wordpress by doing a category search for "decklist". If you tried to search the forums for "decklist" you would get so many unwanted posts and wouldn't easily find what you want.
All of this is true.

It still won't happen.

Work with what people do, not against it.

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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by JediJer »

arebelspy wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 4:37 pm
Work with what people do, not against it.
I don't think that's how change works.
arebelspy wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 4:37 pm
It still won't happen.
Why?

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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by dorshe1 »

JediJer wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 7:02 pm
arebelspy wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 4:37 pm
Work with what people do, not against it.
I don't think that's how change works.
arebelspy wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 4:37 pm
It still won't happen.
Why?
Do we have volunteers lined up to provide these updates on WordPress? Has there been some sort of ground-swell of support for doing WordPress updates that we don't know about?

If there isn't, then you are going to go through all of this trouble and it is just gonna stay empty.

Thanks!
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Hunter
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by Hunter »

JediJer wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 2:34 pm
Want to post a TR, make a post in WordPress.
Want to write articles about decks (primers, deck tech type stuff, etc.), make a post in WordPress.
Want to put an event on the calendar, make a post in WordPress
Want to find the abbreviation guide, look in WordPress
Want to find the latest errata, look in WordPress
Want to find an event, look in WordPress
Want to find the latest set pdf, look in WordPress
Want to read about the design process from someone on D&D, look in WordPress
What is WordPress?

arebelspy
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by arebelspy »


JediJer wrote:
arebelspy wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 4:37 pm
Work with what people do, not against it.
I don't think that's how change works.
Sometimes change doesn't happen, no matter how much someone wants it.
arebelspy wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 4:37 pm
It still won't happen.
Why?
People don't want it.

How much evidence do you need of this? It's been like a decade we've been having this discussion.

Previous threads discussing were probably "pruned" though Image

And change hasn't happened in all that time, because people don't want it. And if they don't, there won't be any content, like you said. And you're left with the scenario of our homepage looking abandoned and the game dead.

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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by JediJer »

So you are suggesting that we go back to only having the forums, since everything else is a waste of resources?

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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by JediJer »

While I'm at it maybe i should try to find phpbb2 and install that, since you all want to stay in 2009.

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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by JediJer »

Hunter wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 7:57 pm
JediJer wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 2:34 pm
Want to post a TR, make a post in WordPress.
Want to write articles about decks (primers, deck tech type stuff, etc.), make a post in WordPress.
Want to put an event on the calendar, make a post in WordPress
Want to find the abbreviation guide, look in WordPress
Want to find the latest errata, look in WordPress
Want to find an event, look in WordPress
Want to find the latest set pdf, look in WordPress
Want to read about the design process from someone on D&D, look in WordPress
What is WordPress?
It's a blog platform and content manage system

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Gergall
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by Gergall »

JediJer wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 9:19 pm
So you are suggesting that we go back to only having the forums, since everything else is a waste of resources?
Definitely not. I just checked out the home page and menus again. Most of it is great and makes a good impression on NARPs. The only section that makes me cringe is the tournament menu, where it gives the impression that the game has been abandoned.

-Cards section works great. The Collecting page should probably include a link to the collecting board in addition to its other links.
-Tools section I don't really use but it seems good
-Rules Page is great, I could read these rules docs and answer questions all day... :)
-Community Articles, Awards/HOF, Chat, Forums, New Players, Online Play are all great
-Community Newsletter - Last newsletter was 2017, maybe this should be cut
-Community Podcasts - Not sure if these are kinda dead like Newsletters?
-Community Player Locator IS a link to the forums. Works great! This is all I'm asking for the Tournaments stuff!
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by JediJer »

How can we get the community to get more involved in contributing content?

What is it that is preventing people from using wordpress? Is it having to login to a different system? What if that wasn't an issue? Would that help people want to post things outside of the forums? Is it because it's essentially two different sites? If the forum were on a page within the rest of the site would that help? I know some people would freak out because then they couldn't have the forum view be 100% width of their screen, and I don't know if I'm willing to put up with that backlash

There is a lot of discussions about various topics on the forums, and I'm not wanting to take away from that, but there are certain things like posting a schedule of tournaments that would be better served by an event/calendar system instead of being buried in forum posts.

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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by dorshe1 »

JediJer wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 9:20 pm
While I'm at it maybe i should try to find phpbb2 and install that, since you all want to stay in 2009.
Wait... this is an option?

Thanks!
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by Gergall »

JediJer wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 11:27 pm
How can we get the community to get more involved in contributing content?

What is it that is preventing people from using wordpress? Is it having to login to a different system? What if that wasn't an issue? Would that help people want to post things outside of the forums? Is it because it's essentially two different sites? If the forum were on a page within the rest of the site would that help? I know some people would freak out because then they couldn't have the forum view be 100% width of their screen, and I don't know if I'm willing to put up with that backlash

There is a lot of discussions about various topics on the forums, and I'm not wanting to take away from that, but there are certain things like posting a schedule of tournaments that would be better served by an event/calendar system instead of being buried in forum posts.
Using forums feels fun because you can see at a glance what the hot topics are and what people have been talking about since your last visit. It feels dynamic and happening.

I assume that the WordPress Tournament Pages have some sort of built-in commenting/discussion feature but it probably doesn't promote engagement the same way that the forums do. The built-in comments sections on those pages are probably more of an afterthought. So I'll just call this problem (Problem #1) the "Community as an Afterthought" problem. I don't have a solution for this problem.

The second problem is that nobody bothers visiting or posting anything to the WP pages because they are empty. So I'll call this problem (Problem #2) the "Chicken and the Egg" problem. You could solve the chicken-egg problem by having a "Website Advocate" whose job is to post that stuff, at least for the first few months, and see if that starts to attract other users to start posting things for themselves.
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by dorshe1 »

I used to update all of the events on the calendar. In wordpress. Then they did a reset and the game sucked so I lost my drive.

Now I think it is better to just use the forums.

Thanks!
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by JediJer »

Gergall wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 3:48 pm
The second problem is that nobody bothers visiting or posting anything to the WP pages because they are empty. So I'll call this problem (Problem #2) the "Chicken and the Egg" problem. You could solve the chicken-egg problem by having a "Website Advocate" whose job is to post that stuff, at least for the first few months, and see if that starts to attract other users to start posting things for themselves.
Assume you are logged into both "systems" (hereafter to be referred to as "the site")
Assume the forum would be one "page" of the site, the event calendar would be another page of the site.
Assume navigating from the forum index to the tournament events page is just as simple as navigating from the forum index to the tournament sub-forum
Would you still use the forum to enter an event into a calendar where it can then appear on a widget across multiple pages of the site (including the forum page) and you can click on a calendar and see at a high level all upcoming events (dates, locations) with a link to a forum topic for further discussion or details, or would you prefer to only bury it in a topic of a sub-forum that typically requires reading each individual topic to find out high level info (date, location, etc.) and no way of knowing it's there without browsing/searching the forums (which many have claimed isn't that great)

I'm not wanting to eliminate the forums, but I do want to add features that make being a part of this community a better experience, which sometimes might include using features that are provided by WordPress and not by phpBB.

This mentality of "I will die before I use anything but the forums" is utterly ridiculous.

There are some WordPress widgets that will show the latest forum posts, making it easy to jump to the forums from other pages.

I am wanting to know how we can get people interested in contributing "static" content to the site that will reside as blog posts and articles. If no one is interested in contributing to that facet of the community, then you need to stop complaining about the website (outside of the forums) being "dead" because I believe that it's your own fault someone coming to the site for the first time would think that. It's not a one man job, it's the responsibility of the community to provide those resources.

I think that if someone came to the site and only saw the forums, they might not bother going any further (maybe I'm wrong though).

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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by dorshe1 »

Gergall made a suggestion that in the absence of new content that the static portion of the site link to the forums.

That seems to he an improvement over no content until you can convince people that it is a good idea to provide content for the main site.

I am failing to see the downside here.

Thanks!
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Re: Tournament Menu Suggestions

Post by Gergall »

JediJer wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 11:39 pm
Assume you are logged into both "systems" (hereafter to be referred to as "the site")
Assume the forum would be one "page" of the site, the event calendar would be another page of the site.
Assume navigating from the forum index to the tournament events page is just as simple as navigating from the forum index to the tournament sub-forum
Would you still use the forum to enter an event into a calendar where it can then appear on a widget across multiple pages of the site (including the forum page) and you can click on a calendar and see at a high level all upcoming events (dates, locations) with a link to a forum topic for further discussion or details, or would you prefer to only bury it in a topic of a sub-forum that typically requires reading each individual topic to find out high level info (date, location, etc.) and no way of knowing it's there without browsing/searching the forums (which many have claimed isn't that great)
It's very tough to visualize it. Appearance and page loading times are enormous factors and hard to judge without actually trying them out. A page can go from awesome to unbearable simply because a widget takes a couple of seconds to do anything after you click on it.

I can tell you that I'm willing to try it out.
Gergall wrote:
quickdraw3457 wrote:
August 21st, 2019, 3:29 pm
The menu hasn't been updated because the main page was supposed to be updated a few weeks ago, but we've consistently run into issues preventing it. It's still supposed to happen soon if we can win the game of whack a mole with word press.
rsersen makes a good point though, is there any chance of taking 15 minutes to point those links at the forums until whack-a-mole is over?
I still think this is a perfectly valid request in the meantime.
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