REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

SWCCG game play discussion.
Post Reply

How do you feel about the state of the game?

I'd prefer a full reset
37
26%
I'd prefer a revert to mass fix some major problems
70
49%
I'd prefer no changes at this time
36
25%
 
Total votes: 143

arebelspy
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: July 14th, 2005, 4:45 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

The reset was end of 2014. It has now been 5 years.

There's a lot of complaints about a lot of top cards/decks:
OA
LMFBM
ABR
Rops
Map

The talk has been simmering for awhile, but sort of came up big today, with Chu saying he isn't interested in playing right now until we reset. Desai and BFred both chimed in in support of a reset, and then a bunch of talk about it between various people (Mischke, JJD, CKelly, Desai, Silverglen, Bastian, etc. etc.) happened on Slack, and spread across a bunch of threads here (OA, ABR, Rops).

I figured I'd start a thread so people could discuss.

I know a lot of people will be against the reset, because I've also heard a lot of the opposite talk, people literally saying "this is the best meta I've ever played in."

Mischke posted in slack:
"I am so tired of playing the same decks. I do not like playing map, but I play it because it is the best. Lmfbm has been around for 3-4 years and has always been on top. It needs to change so things are not stale.

You really do not need to test anymore because the best decks are already known. I can take trm and change five cards maybe and be fine because there is a best answer to the deck and I think that is really bad"

My personal opinion is that we do need a shake-up. I don't like the idea of a full reset, but I do think a mass fixing of problems is warranted.

Per Wikipedia, here is the history of these type of events in the v-set era:
Mass erratas and changes
Redux 1.0 (2007)
Re-Edit (2007)
CBT Erratas (2008)
"Non-Redux" (December 2008)
Revolution (August 2009)
V-Card reset (October 2014)

My personal opinion is that a "redux/reedit/revolution" is needed every 5 years, and a full blown reset every 10 years. Well, it's been five years, and I think we're at the point of needing another one, but yet to the point of needing a full blown reset. I've heard the suggestion we call it a "Revert" in honor of gemp, and keeping the "re" prefix.

If we can mass fix OA npe, Rops swap, Map speed, ABR top of the curve, LMFBM UR helper, and just tone down stuff so it's not all so auto-play where the same cards go in every deck, that would be great.

For an opinion that won't get posted here, as he mostly avoids the forums, Steve Cellucci posted in a slack chat: "Reset talk: music to my ears

And i hope ppl don’t view it as a failure. Every 5-10 years is ideal. And the past era of design has been, for the most part, great. There’s so much good material for a new base set."

I think there's other people like that out there. We wouldn't have known Chu's opinion if it weren't for the Outrider Cup having him come post.

I'd be curious to see people's initial opinions on the topic, via a very simple poll:
1) I'd prefer a full reset
2) I'd prefer a revert to mass fix some major problems
3) I'd prefer no changes at this time

It's not binding, it doesn't set anything in stone, but it'd be good to get a sense of where the community is at, at this time.

Maybe it's mass overwhelmingly in favor of #3, and d&d can use that mandate to stay the course. Maybe not. But rather than guessing (everyone tends to feel other people's heads are at the same place as theirs), how about we figure out roughly what people are thinking at the moment?

Can a mod add a poll to this?



User avatar
Gergall
Member
Posts: 20000
Joined: December 9th, 2002, 1:14 am
Location: Long Island, NY
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by Gergall »

We're running dangerously low on RE- words.

Return - Good for a full-blown reset
Replace - Good for an update where problematic cards are blanked and a new set is released shortly afterwards in fill in those gaps
Revert - Kind of a swiss army knife that would work for anything

In my estimation we're going to be in trouble around 2034 when we need to do an update and won't have a RE word for it.
Greg Zinn

Image

User avatar
Cam Solusar
Member
Posts: 16871
Joined: November 23rd, 2002, 7:57 pm
Location: Sunny Southern California

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by Cam Solusar »

I would prefer a full reset. I think the overall negative impact would not be as big as the previous one, since changes will roll out easily to GEMP, where most of the games seem to be played.

I think individual overall card quality has been higher than prior to the last reset, but overall the meta has not been as interesting. From a meta standpoint, the last three years up to today were not as good as the last three years leading up to the prior reset, IMO.
Camden Y, Southern California
BrenDerlin wrote:These movies aren't called Star Battles, yo.

User avatar
SolaGratia
Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: July 14th, 2012, 7:08 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by SolaGratia »

I am somewhere between #1 & #2

D&D has done some great things over the years so I don't want a full reset like we had in '14 but some major carving out paired with a strong set (like done with set 1 where cards needed some tweaks) sounds great to me!

Some adjustments to design like costing location pulls or releasing the auto set up is good.

As far as "re-" words we go "revert" to honor GEMP and kick the can on those words down the road and there maybe good alternate words that can come from our non-primary-english speaking counter parts over seas that love this game.

Honestly sad to support this as I have really enjoyed the work D&D has done (mostly) but maybe the 5yr/10yr has serious merit.

For more controversy ( :P ) I'd support hard stoppers (e.g., flat out ban from a shield) or even banning of some decipher cards to make it easier on everyone.

arebelspy
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: July 14th, 2005, 4:45 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

Gergall wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 4:45 pm
We're running dangerously low on RE- words.

Return - Good for a full-blown reset
Replace - Good for an update where problematic cards are blanked and a new set is released shortly afterwards in fill in those gaps
Revert - Kind of a swiss army knife that would work for anything

In my estimation we're going to be in trouble around 2034 when we need to do an update and won't have a RE word for it.
Reboot?

At some point we'll have to full-blown reset the "re" words meta.

User avatar
Sagnet
Member
Posts: 400
Joined: March 28th, 2017, 11:25 am
Location: Norway - Toola region

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by Sagnet »

Gergall wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 4:45 pm
We're running dangerously low on RE- words.

Return - Good for a full-blown reset
Replace - Good for an update where problematic cards are blanked and a new set is released shortly afterwards in fill in those gaps
Revert - Kind of a swiss army knife that would work for anything

In my estimation we're going to be in trouble around 2034 when we need to do an update and won't have a RE word for it.
Rebel

User avatar
dorshe1
Member
Posts: 8422
Joined: June 13th, 2013, 3:57 pm
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Holotable username: dorshe1
GEMP Username: dorshe1
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by dorshe1 »

Gergall wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 4:45 pm
We're running dangerously low on RE- words.

Return - Good for a full-blown reset
Replace - Good for an update where problematic cards are blanked and a new set is released shortly afterwards in fill in those gaps
Revert - Kind of a swiss army knife that would work for anything

In my estimation we're going to be in trouble around 2034 when we need to do an update and won't have a RE word for it.
I have been calling it reflux since it was brought up as a potential a while ago.

#bringbacklegacy

Thanks!
Image

User avatar
vhstapes
Member
Posts: 2280
Joined: November 16th, 2009, 1:54 am
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by vhstapes »

My thoughts on this matter would be lonnnnnng (I've already started and erased a few paragraphs) and have to do with nature of this game in general. There are some things people want from it that, in my opinion, it just simply can't provide. It is really time for something that is the equivalent to MTG's edh/commander format to pop up, but I don't know the way to do it in this game.

As someone who hasn't been playing much lately I'm not going to vote because I voted yes to the last reset as a lurker and then felt really bad when a bunch of people left the game, partially (very partially, but still) because of my input into something I barely understood. As long as Court, Profit and No Idea remain playable to some degree, I'll be happy, and if they don't, well, GEMP will lose about 2 games per month, tops.
-Cyrus M.
\m/ Endor Region \m/

Data Tapes - 05 - The Unofficial NARP Defensive Shield Primer

User avatar
dorshe1
Member
Posts: 8422
Joined: June 13th, 2013, 3:57 pm
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Holotable username: dorshe1
GEMP Username: dorshe1
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by dorshe1 »

vhstapes wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 5:13 pm
My thoughts on this matter would be lonnnnnng (I've already started and erased a few paragraphs) and have to do with nature of this game in general. There are some things people want from it that, in my opinion, it just simply can't provide. It is really time for something that is the equivalent to MTG's edh/commander format to pop up, but I don't know the way to do it in this game.

As someone who hasn't been playing much lately I'm not going to vote because I voted yes to the last reset as a lurker and then felt really bad when a bunch of people left the game, partially (very partially, but still) because of my input into something I barely understood. As long as Court, Profit and No Idea remain playable to some degree, I'll be happy, and if they don't, well, GEMP will lose about 2 games per month, tops.
If you don't vote and they do a reset this is on you. Your description says you want to vote for option 2. Just vote.

Thanks!
Image

User avatar
chriskelly
Design Advocate
Posts: 21948
Joined: January 28th, 2003, 2:13 pm
Location: New York

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by chriskelly »

D&D is always reading the boards and receptive (although not beholden) to feedback, so this has potential to be an insightful thread; however it’s important everyone realize this thread is forum user created and not in anyway done at the request of anyone from d&d or an advocate.

If it was, the choices very likely would have included (at least) one additional option and much more of an explanation.

With that said, by all means, I don’t think any insightful posts will go to waste if people want to share their opinions.

AdmiralMotti89
Booster Box
Booster Box
Posts: 1955
Joined: February 28th, 2016, 3:38 pm
Location: Nebraska, USA

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by AdmiralMotti89 »

Seems like there is quite a lot between the second and third option. I don't read every post on the issue but it seems like some people have stated axing LMFBM would make the game a lot better for them. Does that fall under revert?
Eric Garchow
My eBay Store 10% off orders of 10+ items, plus free shipping on orders of $50+
My Trade Thread
My videos/photos of opening sealed SWCCG + other SWCCG things.
My Frequently Updating SWCCG Wants List

User avatar
dorshe1
Member
Posts: 8422
Joined: June 13th, 2013, 3:57 pm
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Holotable username: dorshe1
GEMP Username: dorshe1
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by dorshe1 »

chriskelly wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 5:19 pm
D&D is always reading the boards and receptive (although not beholden) to feedback, so this has potential to be an insightful thread; however it’s important everyone realize this thread is forum user created and not in anyway done at the request of anyone from d&d or an advocate.

If it was, the choices very likely would have included (at least) one additional option and much more of an explanation.

With that said, by all means, I don’t think any insightful posts will go to waste if people want to share their opinions.
Translation:

D&D does not belive the meta needs a reset at this time. We continue to review any number of data points including forum feedback and feedback from top level players in order to influence the future design direction for the game. I want to thank all of you and look forward to releasing Set 12 in the near future.

Thanks!
Image

arebelspy
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: July 14th, 2005, 4:45 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:Seems like there is quite a lot between the second and third option. I don't read every post on the issue but it seems like some people have stated axing LMFBM would make the game a lot better for them. Does that fall under revert?
Yes, that is one of many problem cards that would likely be changed or removed in a revert situation, I'd wager, along with some of the other things mentioned in the OP.

Basically the things that have many, many complaints about could be fixed.

User avatar
SolaGratia
Member
Posts: 1392
Joined: July 14th, 2012, 7:08 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by SolaGratia »

vhstapes wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 5:13 pm
As someone who hasn't been playing much lately I'm not going to vote because I voted yes to the last reset as a lurker and then felt really bad when a bunch of people left the game, partially (very partially, but still) because of my input into something I barely understood.
I hope you don't really feel bad as it wasn't just 1 person to cause that and lets say you voted "no" the reset probably would have happened anyway. Besides that if you voted "no" and the reset never happened then would you feel bad for voting "no" and knowing some people left the game because it didn't reset? The PC put a vote because they wanted to hear from the community at large so your vote matters as it does now. I personally do not like our president nor the democratic candidates and I live in a state that will vote democrat but I will still vote.

Honestly there is no way to make everyone happy and this game is about as complex as it gets so changes or no changes is never easy, aware or unaware people that were heavily into the community and playing have stopped just like if revert happens some people will stop.

This is really about sorting out what is best for the community knowing it's impossible to please everyone so leading the best direction for the masses as best as can be discerned. I don't envy our pc leaders but I support them.

rsersen
Booster Box
Booster Box
Posts: 1564
Joined: January 28th, 2017, 3:42 pm
Location: Hanover, PA
GEMP Username: rsersen
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by rsersen »

I think some changes are needed, but don't see the need to use a sledgehammer when a scalpel might suffice.

We just finished Worlds, and OCS is wrapping up, so this is as good a time as any to try a mass "revert" or whatever re- word you want to use.

If D&D can agree on mass fixes to some of the cards getting the most complaints (ABR, ROps, LMFBM), and announce them within the next 6-8 weeks, then we've got plenty of time between now and EGP to see if it helps.

If, after EGP (plus a couple months of GEMP games), the consensus is that those changes didn't move the needle (or made things worse), then okay, we know a reset is inevitable. At least we tried. And we'll still have 9-10 months to start working on a new set 0, to take effect after Worlds 2020.

I guess the counter-argument is that if a revert doesn't work, and we announce in January/February that there'll be a reset in October/November, this would result in a lame-duck tournament season. On the other hand, D&D can keep working on V12/V13 in the meantime, and they'll have a rare opportunity to take some real chances with those cards.....if they hit some home runs, those can be re-introduced down the road (or even kept in a base set), and any whiffs are temporary anyway. Low risk, high reward.
arebelspy wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 10:16 pm
Agree with Ryan.
Image

Image

User avatar
DTartagOne
Member
Posts: 2509
Joined: September 3rd, 2003, 3:20 pm
Location: Lompoc CA, BFE

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by DTartagOne »

I think Bryan said it best. I like the idea more of a rotation, kind of like Magic does. It might not work on the frequency they do, but it could be good for the game. I would suggest first we start anew with the virtual cards. Then every (x) years we rotate cards out. This allows for new ideas to keep the game fresh.
Dan "Tortellini" Tartaglione
Image Image

MPC Consolation Runner Up 2016 Endor GP Consolation Second Place 2016 SoCal League Runner Up 2017

Ardrra
Sealed Deck
Sealed Deck
Posts: 250
Joined: January 8th, 2019, 1:59 pm
Location: South Carolina
GEMP Username: Ardrra

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by Ardrra »

the middle option is appealing, but deciding on what "major problems" are and how to address them could be a pretty deep rabbit hole.

i tend to agree with Joe's stated 5 as problems, but my 10 months in the forum suggest that is not a ubiquitous list and some of them seem solve-able with much simpler things than a complete re-work. there have been a lot of good suggestions for tweaking LMFBM, ABR, ROps V with simple errata. maybe set 12 could be a "Care" package that tones down some of the higher-performing cards/platforms that cause the most controversy. I assume D&D prefers to work on new stuff, but you can't forget to clean up after the old stuff that gets cluttered.

one thing I'd suggest you consider as someone who works in software development, don't underestimate the complexity of a major reset on Gemp. the last reset predated Gemp. if we suddenly lost or changed a few hundred cards, re-programming all those interactions would be no small task. and that's not to say technical limitations should be a major factor, but they should be A factor. I recall in Gogolen's Gemp review series covering the Online SWCCG day that there was a huge increase in player participation, year-over-year. I think the high quality of Gemp is probably a big component of that, and any talks about major resets should take that into consideration.
Issac

arebelspy
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: July 14th, 2005, 4:45 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

Ardrra wrote:i tend to agree with Joe's stated 5 as problems, but my 10 months in the forum suggest that is not a ubiquitous list and some of them seem solve-able with much simpler things than a complete re-work. there have been a lot of good suggestions for tweaking LMFBM, ABR, ROps V with simple errata. maybe set 12 could be a "Care" package that tones down some of the higher-performing cards/platforms that cause the most controversy. I assume D&D prefers to work on new stuff, but you can't forget to clean up after the old stuff that gets cluttered.
I agree with this, but I think a Revert is the only way at this point for it to happen with a bunch of cards at once.

I also think an independent CBT should be implemented, but I was told after the reset there was no need cause everything was balanced, and after that that everything was fine and D&D was taking care of it all. Okay. I still think a CBT is a good idea for the health of the game.

tomtom
Enhanced Product
Enhanced Product
Posts: 510
Joined: December 1st, 2017, 2:26 pm
GEMP Username: tom

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by tomtom »

I could go years without a single new card if D&D just wanted to errata the over and under-performing cards instead.
I AM THE "GEMP WARRIOR!"

User avatar
vhstapes
Member
Posts: 2280
Joined: November 16th, 2009, 1:54 am
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Re: REVERT - The Reset/Redux/Revolution/Reedit Discussion

Post by vhstapes »

SolaGratia wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 5:25 pm
vhstapes wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 5:13 pm
As someone who hasn't been playing much lately I'm not going to vote because I voted yes to the last reset as a lurker and then felt really bad when a bunch of people left the game, partially (very partially, but still) because of my input into something I barely understood.
I hope you don't really feel bad as it wasn't just 1 person to cause that and lets say you voted "no" the reset probably would have happened anyway. Besides that if you voted "no" and the reset never happened then would you feel bad for voting "no" and knowing some people left the game because it didn't reset? The PC put a vote because they wanted to hear from the community at large so your vote matters as it does now. I personally do not like our president nor the democratic candidates and I live in a state that will vote democrat but I will still vote.

Honestly there is no way to make everyone happy and this game is about as complex as it gets so changes or no changes is never easy, aware or unaware people that were heavily into the community and playing have stopped just like if revert happens some people will stop.

This is really about sorting out what is best for the community knowing it's impossible to please everyone so leading the best direction for the masses as best as can be discerned. I don't envy our pc leaders but I support them.
I'm not losing sleep over it or anything but I feel like I should have just not voted, since I don't really care either way, just like now.
-Cyrus M.
\m/ Endor Region \m/

Data Tapes - 05 - The Unofficial NARP Defensive Shield Primer

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”