Hypothetical tweaks

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Hayes
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Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Hayes »

This thread is not to discuss the merits of revert/redux/reset. Please continue such discussion here.

This thread aims to compile a laundry list of specific cards or design mechanics that may warrant adjustment (should something happen in the future). I'll start:
  • Free location deployment. i.e. objective text like that found on OA, Mon Mothma. Example of "fine" location deployment: KDY V or Vigo V or Errata'ed Shadows
  • Free cards in general. i.e. Raddus, Finn, Sebulba V, Dr. Chelli, Devastator in IE, Tantive in Diplo, Falcon in OA
  • Automatic/free cards to hand. i.e. ABR, Endor Shield V, Bow, IMBATS, Rey, Raddus, Finn, Kir Kanos V, Hux. Examples of "fine" cards to hand: Proxima because she first costs force, has location restrictions, and can be killed; Jabba's Space Cruiser V, because targets are very limited and Golden Rod is a thing
  • I'd also love to see a shield for undercover spies. A part of why shields were originally created was to free up deck slots from the most ubiquitous "mandatory" cards such as Secret Plans, Battle Plan/Order, Grabbers, CHYBC; and when was the last time you saw a list that didn't have Corran Horn? Furthermore, given the pace of the game and how precious force loss is, UC spies are extremely under-costed and over-effective, especially when an answer cannot be found (or if they have the female interrupt). Pretty sure there are some great examples of this from the NAC stream (and I know Emi's Jyn stopped about 10-12 force loss against me in the semis at Worlds).
I'll note that not every single card needs to be curtailed. There can and always will exist exceptions to the rule; the problem is created when those exceptions become the norm. I want to use our collective brain power to identify some of the hot button cards/themes for consideration.



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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by allstarz97 »

Adding upgrade tweaks when we have downgrade tweaks/errata...


For example, say we hit lmfbm, a tweak to make jedi business better would be neat, like maybe you can't play original trilogy jedi but you can run old man luke or something. Or say we hit old allies, maybe errata something else to play the falcon in other platforms.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Wokling »

Re: free locations. They definitely should not be 2/1 drain +1. Look to what Decipher did with MWYHL (pulled 1 twix, everything else a 1/0), COTVG (pulls DBs, which are 1/0), QMC (the pull is at 1 force and only on one objective side), and HB (any system, but LS player's drains are limited until flipped/pulling gives up a ton of force).

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by allstarz97 »

beach and the starkiller site are OP, agree 100%.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by TacoBill »

I think you've pretty much hit most of them, but I'd also go with destiny creep cards (destiny 3 characters that draw or add destinies or destiny 5 interrupts for the sake of being destiny 5).
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by quickdraw3457 »

Agree with OP except for the UC spy part (although I do agree that UC spies shouldn't be protected by things like the female interrupt). I especially agree with the IMBATS/bow/rey. It's frustrating to play against someone who unloads their entire hand and finishes their turn with 4 force active and 12 cards in hand still because they keep uploading/pulling specific cards they want.

I would add to it free movement (theed palace hallway, xizor's palace), retrieve into hand (chelli, sewers), anything that lets you get cards back from lost pile (rops, map interrupts, obi-wan v, and even WYS although that has a fair shield and it's what the deck does), non-location activation (sorry Eric, I think wokling has had more than its share of time in the sun).
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Wokling »

quickdraw3457 wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 10:04 am
Agree with OP except for the UC spy part (although I do agree that UC spies shouldn't be protected by things like the female interrupt). I especially agree with the IMBATS/bow/rey. It's frustrating to play against someone who unloads their entire hand and finishes their turn with 4 force active and 12 cards in hand still because they keep uploading/pulling specific cards they want.

I would add to it free movement (theed palace hallway, xizor's palace), retrieve into hand (chelli, sewers), anything that lets you get cards back from lost pile (rops, map interrupts, obi-wan v, and even WYS although that has a fair shield and it's what the deck does), non-location activation (sorry Eric, I think wokling has had more than its share of time in the sun).
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by chriskelly »

Wokling is not going anywhere other than our deck protectors...

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Wokling »

I can actually see Wokling getting changed, if not axed. On the one hand it brings additional balance to the force (giving the LS player who is typically going second, an extra boost), but given the concern regarding faster activation - it is a design restraint. The ability to find an effect can enable certain strategies, and is something I wouldn't want to see go.

I also wish Design would be more mindful of making cards that do a thousand things. Cards can do 1 or 2 things and still be unique and powerful.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by alphabeta »

-Objectives that pull sites and twixes also on the 7 side. This does not make sense to me, it just supports the trend towards disappearing early game.

-The creep towards so many BD adders, and modifiers to individual or total BD. Or make a shield limiting substituted or drawn BDs to 2 per battle, and no more than 1 character modifying the draws. Or sthg like that. We need to curb the trend I find. That may imply that we'd need to do something with decks like No Idea, who also have strong weapon protection built-in + high forfeit and damn cheap guys, I dont know.

-Playing (or swapping) lost interrupts from lost pile. That should to the bare minimum have a cost, like WYS has.
Last edited by alphabeta on October 3rd, 2019, 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by stevetotheizz0 »

Don’t forget free movement was another thing that kept popping up too.
-Playing (or swapping) lost interrupts from lost pile. That should to the bare minimum have a cost, like WYS has.
The wys shield is a good example of how costs should be added over the course of game to help wind things down too.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by FlorisV »

stevetotheizz0 wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 12:39 pm
Don’t forget free movement was another thing that kept popping up too.
I have 0 problems with this. Mobility is good for the game. If anything, it's gametext that makes it more expensive like IE that bothers me. Also scrubs should not get more disadvantages than they already have compared to mains. Free movement could also be necessary for decks that still need help like SYCFA Star Destroyers.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by allstarz97 »

One thing that should probably be accepted by Me, Chu, Steve, Hayes, Eric and others who have really gotten aroused the idea of a reset/redux/major change is we all played the game and remember the power boost starting interupts gave us, prepared defenses and heading were mind blowing. But it's not 1999 anymore and the game has changed. SWCCG as WE know it isn't how everyone views it and we aren't "right" because we found swccg first.

...my point is we have positive feelings and a lot of experience with a much much much much slower game, not everyone has that, and to them swccg IS the sped up version. So I think it's not realistic for us to want too much of a slow down, I'm actually ok with the speed of the game, its just the redundancy... that it's always piett at the docking bay, that its always mothma for chandrilla etc.
Last edited by allstarz97 on October 3rd, 2019, 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by stevetotheizz0 »

allstarz97 wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 1:35 pm
One thing that should probably be accepted by Me, Chu, Steve, Hayes, Eric and others who have really gotten aroused the idea of a reset/redux/major change is we all played the game and remember the power boost starting interupts gave us, prepared defenses and heading were mind blowing...

...my point is we have positive feelings and a lot of experience with a much much much much slower game, not everyone has that, and to them swccg IS the sped up version. So I think it's not realistic for us to want too much of a slow down, I'm actually ok with the speed of the game, its just the redundancy... that it's always piett at the docking bay, that its always mothma for chandrilla etc.
x2 Agree that I prefer the slower game but that's probably gone, and dislike the redundancy of the linear set up.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by SolaGratia »

alphabeta wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 12:38 pm
The creep towards so many BD adders, and modifiers to individual or total BD. Or make a shield limiting substituted or drawn BDs to 2 per battle, and no more than 1 character modifying the draws. Or sthg like that. We need to curb the trend I find. That may imply that we'd need to do something with decks like No Idea, who also have strong weapon protection built-in + high forfeit and damn cheap guys, I dont know.
One comment on this - in principle I agree with not going too crazy on BD adders but in practice I am a bit wary in certain scenarios where we have decks with huge attrition soakers (e.g., ISB/ROPSv/IE with IAO/Code Clearance and imps) and need some ability to mow through it. I don't have a solution but something D&D I am sure keeps in mind.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by chrknudsen2 »

SolaGratia wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 2:17 pm
One comment on this - in principle I agree with not going too crazy on BD adders but in practice I am a bit wary in certain scenarios where we have decks with huge attrition soakers (e.g., ISB/ROPSv/IE with IAO/Code Clearance and imps) and need some ability to mow through it. I don't have a solution but something D&D I am sure keeps in mind.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Silverglen »

I personally dislike the - force drain cancellers. There’s a shield to limit loss. If someone drains (for fee or not) that should go through. I except that control maybe the exception; but a fair one as it is lost.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Thekillerkiwi »

Here are some of the hypothetical tweaks that I personally would make if I was going to do a mass amount of minor(some major?) tweaks. Also understand that aside from a few cards, I personally like what Design has been doing with the game lately and feel the meta is moving in a generally positive direction. That doesn't mean we can't revisit some of the cards that have already been created to re-evaluate their power level and adjust accordingly so as to extend their life. Thus avoiding some of the cycle of just creating more powerful cards to get to the same level or overpower the previous cards(i.e. power creep).

1. Remove the deploy=6 from LMFBM.
2. Add a +1 to battle destiny draws for Jedi Business
3. Remove the ability to pull the Finalizer from Bow To The First Order
4. Make both functions of Jedi Lev(v) as a Lost Interrupt.
5. Make ROPs swap mechanic once per turn and only on the 7 side.
6. Have ABR only pull characters of lesser ability.
7. Make it cost 1 force to pull a Starkiller base site.
8. Make it cost 1 force to pull a Jakku site on OA.
9. Change Battle Plan/Battle Order shields to allow all battles to be free to initiate and all Force Drains 2 force to initiate, no exceptions.
10. Create a flip back condition for Legend like if no Resistance characters on table or something. Then the front side could add "May {flip} this card if Luke on Ahch-To and a battle was just initiated involving a Resistance character OR if Luke OOP and a Resistance character is at a battleground."
11. Make the subtract 2 on OA just target battle destiny.
12. Add an Episode 1 icon to Aayla Secura
13. Change Evac Control/Justice(v) to 2 cards stacked.
14. Make Imperial Domination one dot
15. Change Wokling(v) to state "Your Force Generation is +1 while you occupy a battleground."
16. Remove the "Adds 1 LS icon" text from Tantive(v).
17. Change Padme(v) to say "Cancels Vader's and Anakin's Gametext Here."
18. Change The Shield Is Down(v) to say "Once per turn, use 1 force to deploy an Endor location"
19. Remove the "if with an imperial" portion on Hera Syndulla
20. On the 0 side of Old Allies change the flip condition to say "Flip this card if you occupy three Jakku locations and opponent controls no Jakku Locations.". On the 7 side change it so that it says "Flip this card if opponent controls more Jakku locations than you."
21. Change Solo to say "While on Falcon, draws one battle destiny if unable to otherwise."
22. Add a 1 Force cost to pull ships or sites with No Idea.
23. Put Mitth'raw'nuruodo's text on a different character.
24. Change FN-2003 so that maybe he just prevents firing a weapon not cancelling gametext.
25. Allow According to My Design to ignore objective deployment restrictions when deploying the Emperor to start the game.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by chrknudsen2 »

Thekillerkiwi wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 4:43 am
12. Add an Episode 1 icon to Aayla Secura
She got that back in February: viewtopic.php?p=1241261#p1241261

I like your other suggestions, though!

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by marines28 »

I like all of those, Baity. Nice work.
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