Hypothetical tweaks

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by alphabeta »

I struggle with tweaks to justice v and evac control v when theres a BD creep (see my own post above)



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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Madmanwithabox »

alphabeta wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 7:35 am
I struggle with tweaks to justice v and evac control v when theres a BD creep (see my own post above)
‘May draw no more than two’ would be fairer. Curbs the destiny creep, but allows for breaking immunity.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Apollyon »

alphabeta wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 7:35 am
I struggle with tweaks to justice v and evac control v when theres a BD creep (see my own post above)
I think I'd much rather see a bunch of cards that cancel a BD when someone draws more than 1 and an extra BD reduction.

Justice and Evac Control v are both oppressive against decks that want to clear through BD/attrition and abusive in decks that do (ROps/Diplo).

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

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allstarz97 wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 1:35 pm
One thing that should probably be accepted by Me, Chu, Steve, Hayes, Eric and others who have really gotten aroused the idea of a reset/redux/major change is we all played the game and remember the power boost starting interupts gave us, prepared defenses and heading were mind blowing. But it's not 1999 anymore and the game has changed. SWCCG as WE know it isn't how everyone views it and we aren't "right" because we found swccg first.

...my point is we have positive feelings and a lot of experience with a much much much much slower game, not everyone has that, and to them swccg IS the sped up version. So I think it's not realistic for us to want too much of a slow down, I'm actually ok with the speed of the game, its just the redundancy... that it's always piett at the docking bay, that its always mothma for chandrilla etc.

If you slow the game down anymore 75 percent of the players would never finish a game in time.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by TacoBill »

When I did my first pass through, there were 55 cards I would make weaker. Most of them were focused on stopping auto-pulls (Dooku, Blizzard 2, Jabba the Hutt, Elis in Hinthra), adding costs to location pulling, text creep on characters or characters replacing themselves (Ruescott, Taidu, Kallus, Cassian), getting rid of Used Pile pulls in favor of Force Pile pulls (Rey, Bow, IMBATS), and getting rid of characters easily adding destinies (Solo, Jango, Hera). In addition, making ROps be 2/1 sites, addign flip conditions and removing Jakku reduction on OA, restricting LMFBM to decks with an Endor site, blanking YKWICF, ABR limited to twice per game, and something to Legend.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by CRG »

Apollyon wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 7:54 am
alphabeta wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 7:35 am
I struggle with tweaks to justice v and evac control v when theres a BD creep (see my own post above)
I think I'd much rather see a bunch of cards that cancel a BD when someone draws more than 1 and an extra BD reduction.
Currently only cards that do that are Jodo Kast and Commander Wedge (V)?

But then again, SYAK.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Tbiesty »

marines28 wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 7:00 am
I like all of those, Baity. Nice work.
Often cards aren't ideal on the first try, even after D&D + playtesting is done. Sometimes it takes a year to figure that out.

It'd be useful to have the ability to look back on a regular basis and:
1) Nerf a few OP cards
2) Improve a few weak cards
3) Remove cards that were complete dead ends

I think being stuck with a card's game text forever (or until the next reset) is too strict to allow for continuous improvements to be done. I'd rather adjust existing card A (that is too weak/strong) rather than add yet another card B to the card pool to hopefully fix card A's shortcomings. Deck designs/choices can certainly shift via tweaking existing cards for balance + adding a few new cards for new gameplay designs, so do both!
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by allstarz97 »

Thekillerkiwi wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 4:43 am
Here are some of the hypothetical tweaks that I personally would make if I was going to do a mass amount of minor(some major?) tweaks. Also understand that aside from a few cards, I personally like what Design has been doing with the game lately and feel the meta is moving in a generally positive direction. That doesn't mean we can't revisit some of the cards that have already been created to re-evaluate their power level and adjust accordingly so as to extend their life. Thus avoiding some of the cycle of just creating more powerful cards to get to the same level or overpower the previous cards(i.e. power creep).

1. Remove the deploy=6 from LMFBM. :!!:
2. Add a +1 to battle destiny draws for Jedi Business :!!:
3. Remove the ability to pull the Finalizer from Bow To The First Order :!!:
4. Make both functions of Jedi Lev(v) as a Lost Interrupt. :!!: or just nuke the card.
5. Make ROPs swap mechanic once per turn and only on the 7 side. :!!:
6. Have ABR only pull characters of lesser ability. :!!:
7. Make it cost 1 force to pull a Starkiller base site. :!!:
8. Make it cost 1 force to pull a Jakku site on OA. :!!:
9. Change Battle Plan/Battle Order shields to allow all battles to be free to initiate and all Force Drains 2 force to initiate, no exceptions. :mad:
10. Create a flip back condition for Legend like if no Resistance characters on table or something. Then the front side could add "May {flip} this card if Luke on Ahch-To and a battle was just initiated involving a Resistance character OR if Luke OOP and a Resistance character is at a battleground." :!!:
11. Make the subtract 2 on OA just target battle destiny. :!!: :!!: :!!: :!!: :!!: :!!:
12. Add an Episode 1 icon to Aayla Secura :???
13. Change Evac Control/Justice(v) to 2 cards stacked. :mad:
14. Make Imperial Domination one dot :!!:
15. Change Wokling(v) to state "Your Force Generation is +1 while you occupy a battleground." :mad:
16. Remove the "Adds 1 LS icon" text from Tantive(v). :!!:
17. Change Padme(v) to say "Cancels Vader's and Anakin's Gametext Here." :!!!: I think we can do better here.
18. Change The Shield Is Down(v) to say "Once per turn, use 1 force to deploy an Endor location" . :??? seems unneeded.
19. Remove the "if with an imperial" portion on Hera Syndulla :!!:
20. On the 0 side of Old Allies change the flip condition to say "Flip this card if you occupy three Jakku locations and opponent controls no Jakku Locations.". On the 7 side change it so that it says "Flip this card if opponent controls more Jakku locations than you." :!!:
21. Change Solo to say "While on Falcon, draws one battle destiny if unable to otherwise." :mad:
22. Add a 1 Force cost to pull ships or sites with No Idea. :!!:
23. Put Mitth'raw'nuruodo's text on a different character. :!!:
24. Change FN-2003 so that maybe he just prevents firing a weapon not cancelling gametext. :!!:
25. Allow According to My Design to ignore objective deployment restrictions when deploying the Emperor to start the game. Not sure how I feel about map that starts the emp.. :!!!:
:!!:

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by alphabeta »

Tbiesty wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 8:44 am
marines28 wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 7:00 am
I like all of those, Baity. Nice work.
Often cards aren't ideal on the first try, even after D&D + playtesting is done. Sometimes it takes a year to figure that out.

It'd be useful to have the ability to look back on a regular basis and:
1) Nerf a few OP cards
2) Improve a few weak cards
3) Remove cards that were complete dead ends

I think being stuck with a card's game text forever (or until the next reset) is too strict to allow for continuous improvements to be done. I'd rather adjust existing card A (that is too weak/strong) rather than add yet another card B to the card pool to hopefully fix card A's shortcomings. Deck designs/choices can certainly shift via tweaking existing cards for balance + adding a few new cards for new gameplay designs, so do both!
100% agree.
It would make perfect sense for each set release to be accompanied by a list of erratas/changes, even outright banning of older cards. Prove me wrong, but I'm sure that would help the work of D&D by reducing the pressure on design space.

I mean, its not like we are spending millions in printing card stock and distributing it worldwide to thousands of players... everything is virtual, we re a small community. We should be so much more agile than decipher!

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Tbiesty »

alphabeta wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 8:55 am
100% agree.
It would make perfect sense for each set release to be accompanied by a list of erratas/changes, even outright banning of older cards. Prove me wrong, but I'm sure that would help the work of D&D by reducing the pressure on design space.

I mean, its not like we are spending millions in printing card stock and distributing it worldwide to thousands of players... everything is virtual, we re a small community. We should be so much more agile than decipher!
:!!:
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Jnapolit31 »

Poe Dameron only adds a battle destiny when piloting a starfighter (or even a snub fighter)
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Wokling »

Adding this from the ABR thread because this is the place for it.

Location pulls.

OA starts 2x 2/1s, pulls a 2/0, a 2/1, and a 2/2. It starts Wokling (+1) and ABR (+2). That's 14 force (counting the one for yourself) and only requires 7 cards. TRM, by contrast uses 13-14 cards to get out 10 force (counting the one for yourself). Generally, the ability to pull locations should be accompanied by a penalty: the locations activate no more than 1 force (this requires putting more cards on table); the locations do not drain for 2 (this means you're invading your opponents locations or playing cards to do damage); the locations give up force, etc. TRM's activation scheme has plenty of trade offs: 10/0 is great but there is a degree of risk in getting out the activation; it gives up 0 force but only activates 10; it has to use 14 card slots but only puts 7 cards on table. The only penalty OA pays is giving up icons. I think its safe to say that penalty is not severe enough. Imagine if ABR did not provide a force bonus (additionally, you could imagine that Rey did not deploy -2 to her hut, the Falcon did not take off for free, or it cost 1 force to deploy a location from reserve) and the activation begins to look more fair - it may even force the OA player to dedicate more cards slots to activation, which would bring down its power level slightly.

Design has to be more mindful of how decks activate, do damage, etc. I think a spectrum of possible activation platforms is best. Have twix pullers on one side (lots of deck slots, randomness) and everything is pulled on the other side (fewer deck slots, no randomness). Notice that the 'everything pulled' side has two advantages whereas twix pullers has two negatives. That needs to be balanced. Twixes offer no force is an advantage, so to start, the locations that are pulled should be battlegrounds that give up icons. But maybe 'everything pulled' should be required to put more cards on table. Maybe their locations shouldn't do 2 damage. Maybe it should cost force to pull these superior locations.

Look at COTVG. Right now it pulls several locations, plays twix pullers, but has to use a 1/1 and a 1/0 (meaning more cards on table) and can't drain for more than 1 force at any of its locations (the objective will do 1 point of damage, but to both players!). Compare with No Idea, which can pull a 2/1 that is drain +1 and there's a card that it starts that pings its opponent for 2 force. Or OA which starts a 2/1 that drains for 2 and increases the deploy of opponent's location. It's pure power creep and makes so many decks unplayable because they can't compete.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

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Tbiesty wrote:
marines28 wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 7:00 am
I like all of those, Baity. Nice work.
Often cards aren't ideal on the first try, even after D&D + playtesting is done. Sometimes it takes a year to figure that out.

It'd be useful to have the ability to look back on a regular basis and:
1) Nerf a few OP cards
2) Improve a few weak cards
3) Remove cards that were complete dead ends

I think being stuck with a card's game text forever (or until the next reset) is too strict to allow for continuous improvements to be done. I'd rather adjust existing card A (that is too weak/strong) rather than add yet another card B to the card pool to hopefully fix card A's shortcomings. Deck designs/choices can certainly shift via tweaking existing cards for balance + adding a few new cards for new gameplay designs, so do both!
I would love that.

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by chriskelly »

Some of these changes I love; some of these changes I hate. But I really appreciate you guys taking the time to list stuff out like this in an organized, easy to read fashion without all the commentary. Lists like Brandon’s make it very easy for us to comb thru and digest.

Thanks guys!

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Thekillerkiwi »

allstarz97 wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 8:51 am
Thekillerkiwi wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 4:43 am
Here are some of the hypothetical tweaks that I personally would make if I was going to do a mass amount of minor(some major?) tweaks. Also understand that aside from a few cards, I personally like what Design has been doing with the game lately and feel the meta is moving in a generally positive direction. That doesn't mean we can't revisit some of the cards that have already been created to re-evaluate their power level and adjust accordingly so as to extend their life. Thus avoiding some of the cycle of just creating more powerful cards to get to the same level or overpower the previous cards(i.e. power creep).

1. Remove the deploy=6 from LMFBM. :!!:
2. Add a +1 to battle destiny draws for Jedi Business :!!:
3. Remove the ability to pull the Finalizer from Bow To The First Order :!!:
4. Make both functions of Jedi Lev(v) as a Lost Interrupt. :!!: or just nuke the card.
5. Make ROPs swap mechanic once per turn and only on the 7 side. :!!:
6. Have ABR only pull characters of lesser ability. :!!:
7. Make it cost 1 force to pull a Starkiller base site. :!!:
8. Make it cost 1 force to pull a Jakku site on OA. :!!:
9. Change Battle Plan/Battle Order shields to allow all battles to be free to initiate and all Force Drains 2 force to initiate, no exceptions. :mad:
10. Create a flip back condition for Legend like if no Resistance characters on table or something. Then the front side could add "May {flip} this card if Luke on Ahch-To and a battle was just initiated involving a Resistance character OR if Luke OOP and a Resistance character is at a battleground." :!!:
11. Make the subtract 2 on OA just target battle destiny. :!!: :!!: :!!: :!!: :!!: :!!:
12. Add an Episode 1 icon to Aayla Secura :???
13. Change Evac Control/Justice(v) to 2 cards stacked. :mad:
14. Make Imperial Domination one dot :!!:
15. Change Wokling(v) to state "Your Force Generation is +1 while you occupy a battleground." :mad:
16. Remove the "Adds 1 LS icon" text from Tantive(v). :!!:
17. Change Padme(v) to say "Cancels Vader's and Anakin's Gametext Here." :!!!: I think we can do better here.
18. Change The Shield Is Down(v) to say "Once per turn, use 1 force to deploy an Endor location" . :??? seems unneeded.
19. Remove the "if with an imperial" portion on Hera Syndulla :!!:
20. On the 0 side of Old Allies change the flip condition to say "Flip this card if you occupy three Jakku locations and opponent controls no Jakku Locations.". On the 7 side change it so that it says "Flip this card if opponent controls more Jakku locations than you." :!!:
21. Change Solo to say "While on Falcon, draws one battle destiny if unable to otherwise." :mad:
22. Add a 1 Force cost to pull ships or sites with No Idea. :!!:
23. Put Mitth'raw'nuruodo's text on a different character. :!!:
24. Change FN-2003 so that maybe he just prevents firing a weapon not cancelling gametext. :!!:
25. Allow According to My Design to ignore objective deployment restrictions when deploying the Emperor to start the game. Not sure how I feel about map that starts the emp.. :!!!:
:!!:
In response to your comments on numbers 17, 18, and 25.

When I look at the game, I personally want to see unique combinations and situations. Giving cards like ATMD the ability to change their start potentially makes how you play them or against them different every time. Starting an Emperor in ASM, Invasion, or MAP, while not really thematic, creates all kinds of new scenarios and also legitimately makes the DS player question if they want to give up their first turn. It is definitely not cookie cutter. Is the Emperor better than starting You Know What I've Come For, getting the Landing Site and a typical first turn Kylo? IDK, but I'd be curious to see it.

With the Shield Is Down, I think having the ability to pull Chirpa's Hut and the Endor system could make it usable in a bunch of other decks and open up cool options.

With Padme, I would just like to see her as a bit of a double edged sword and I do think we could go farther like maybe "While with Vader or Anakin, Padme is power -2 and cancels their gametext." or hell, make it crazy and she cancels everyone elses gametext at the site but her own. I personally like cards like that where it becomes a real decision point whether or not to play it.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Archmage »

Someone (and I am not sure who) mentioned that the pay x for a location sucked when you missed. We could develop a new download icon like \/ X Which could mean search you deck for whatever (an Endor battleground site), pay X (in addition to normal cost) to place it in play.
That way if not found, you would not have to pay.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

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Archmage wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 12:49 pm
Someone (and I am not sure who) mentioned that the pay x for a location sucked when you missed. We could develop a new download icon like \/ X Which could mean search you deck for whatever (an Endor battleground site), pay X (in addition to normal cost) to place it in play.
That way if not found, you would not have to pay.
That's a recipe for text creep, which I feel is worse than power creep.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by alphabeta »

Yes. And I think there should always be a risk/reward to decisions.
Masterful Move is good for that - pulls useful things, but costs 1. It forces the player to think about where the target card is: leveraging Reserve Deck pulls, waiting for end of turn so the Used pile is recycled, etc. And if you want to take your chance its always possible

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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by Corran »

Corran's list of tweaks:

1. ROps v and OA need better win conditions
2. Rebel Trooper Reinforcements needs to be slightly nerfed
3. The "no retrieval" text on Map needs to go away
4. Evac Control and Imperial Justice need to go away in favor of more interesting destiny limiters
5. Rebel/Imperial Leadership should limit both players
6. A shield that keeps people from verifying their decks for the sake of verifying their decks.
7. That card I don't like should be banned
8. I need to get better at Star Wars cards.

It was a stretch for me to think of this many. There are tons of platforms that I'd like to see helper cards for, but very little errata that I feel is necessary.
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Re: Hypothetical tweaks

Post by CRG »

Corran wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 3:54 pm
6. A shield that keeps people from verifying their decks for the sake of verifying their decks.
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