Set 12 errata

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JarJarDrinks
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by JarJarDrinks »

Cam Solusar wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 12:16 pm
I think the card pool eventually gets unwieldy to the point that it's just impossible to balance everything, and power creep just becomes a coping mechanism because you can effectively ignore previous design work, since the new stuff is just more powerful. I've seen nothing in the game's history to indicate that it's going to be possible to continue healthily without another reset. The tweak set will help, but it's going to be necessary to do it again soon enough.
You do realize that the tweak set is going to make cards stronger and not weaker right?


dx_37 wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 12:12 pm
I would be all for a reset if I get to be on the reset team
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by 3MW0J8 »

He said many, not most.

And as for citations, you can start with viewtopic.php?p=1275084#p1275084 and the 5 posts that followed, all from prominent players.
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by Cam Solusar »

JarJarDrinks wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 1:34 pm
Cam Solusar wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 12:16 pm
It seems that many people did not find the open format fun the past 6+ months.
Citation needed?

I think most people just wanted to see some change to the top competitive decks.
It's a lot of work to set up alternate formats like Jawa Cup and Pittsburgh, and more work still to convince people to play them, unless there is some consensus that doing so is more fun than the open format, which is by far the path of least resistance. We haven't ever seen the popularity of these types of limited formats on such a mainstream scale in the history of the game in the PC era.
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by Cam Solusar »

JarJarDrinks wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 1:39 pm
Cam Solusar wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 12:16 pm
I think the card pool eventually gets unwieldy to the point that it's just impossible to balance everything, and power creep just becomes a coping mechanism because you can effectively ignore previous design work, since the new stuff is just more powerful. I've seen nothing in the game's history to indicate that it's going to be possible to continue healthily without another reset. The tweak set will help, but it's going to be necessary to do it again soon enough.
You do realize that the tweak set is going to make cards stronger and not weaker right?
I think you're probably just arguing semantics? The tweak set includes the balnkings/errata/nerfs to LMFBM, ROPs, OA, MAP, etc, does it not?
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by JarJarDrinks »

Cam Solusar wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 1:45 pm
I think you're probably just arguing semantics? The tweak set includes the balnkings/errata/nerfs to LMFBM, ROPs, OA, MAP, etc, does it not?
The nerfs you mention are balance changes that went through the CB process.

The tweak set cards are DnDed in the same way new cards are made.

As has been pointed out previously, the tweak set has been long in the works before the aforementioned Chu post that started this all.
dx_37 wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 12:12 pm
I would be all for a reset if I get to be on the reset team
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by Corran »

Cam Solusar wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 1:43 pm
JarJarDrinks wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 1:34 pm
Cam Solusar wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 12:16 pm
It seems that many people did not find the open format fun the past 6+ months.
Citation needed?

I think most people just wanted to see some change to the top competitive decks.
It's a lot of work to set up alternate formats like Jawa Cup and Pittsburgh, and more work still to convince people to play them, unless there is some consensus that doing so is more fun than the open format, which is by far the path of least resistance. We haven't ever seen the popularity of these types of limited formats on such a mainstream scale in the history of the game in the PC era.
Jawa Cup's success had a lot of factors beyond people being tired of Open. It couldn't have existed without the popularity of GEMP, where at any given time about 10% of games are played in alternate formats(not to mention a place where I can play in a tournament against Europeans at 2 in the afternoon on a wednesday). It also came after two majors and a summer of events in the same Open format. There was a consensus even among people like me that a handful of decks had risen to the top.

If Jawa Cup brought some people back into things, that's awesome, but if nobody was playing GEMP and enjoying the Open format all summer, it would not have been a success.
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by SmallDarkLines »

Talking of GEMP, the availability of games means that the meta, and players finding cards that exceed (or fall below) the power curve, is significantly accelerated.

The approach to design needs to encompass this shift in the way the community works - the tweak set is evidence that the PC are aware of the difference between now and the end of the legacy era.
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by JarJarDrinks »

what in the blue hell is a pittsburgh format?
dx_37 wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 12:12 pm
I would be all for a reset if I get to be on the reset team
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Cam Solusar
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by Cam Solusar »

Corran wrote:
Cam Solusar wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 1:43 pm
JarJarDrinks wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 1:34 pm
Cam Solusar wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 12:16 pm
It seems that many people did not find the open format fun the past 6+ months.
Citation needed?

I think most people just wanted to see some change to the top competitive decks.
It's a lot of work to set up alternate formats like Jawa Cup and Pittsburgh, and more work still to convince people to play them, unless there is some consensus that doing so is more fun than the open format, which is by far the path of least resistance. We haven't ever seen the popularity of these types of limited formats on such a mainstream scale in the history of the game in the PC era.
Jawa Cup's success had a lot of factors beyond people being tired of Open. It couldn't have existed without the popularity of GEMP, where at any given time about 10% of games are played in alternate formats(not to mention a place where I can play in a tournament against Europeans at 2 in the afternoon on a wednesday). It also came after two majors and a summer of events in the same Open format. There was a consensus even among people like me that a handful of decks had risen to the top.

If Jawa Cup brought some people back into things, that's awesome, but if nobody was playing GEMP and enjoying the Open format all summer, it would not have been a success.
Sure, but that doesn't address Pittsburgh format. By your reasoning it seems there shouldn't have been impetus for that.

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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by quickdraw3457 »

JarJarDrinks wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 2:23 pm
what in the blue hell is a pittsburgh format?
viewtopic.php?f=1169&t=73780
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by JarJarDrinks »

Lol
dx_37 wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 12:12 pm
I would be all for a reset if I get to be on the reset team
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by chriskelly »

Cam Solusar wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 12:16 pm
But be honest about who you're choosing listen to, don't try to play both ends against the middle and pretend you can please everyone.
D&D is definitely aware that we can’t please everyone and that no matter what happens or what cards are created there are some people who will just post complaint after complaint after tired complaint. We don’t really pretend to please those people anymore.

Instead we collaborate and design things and tweak things and monitor things and do the best job our minds, our abilities, and times allow. Hopefully that shines thru, especially to those who really know the amount of work that does go into this behind the scenes.

Also, what arebelspy said in his unattributed quote.

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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by Cam Solusar »

chriskelly wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 3:37 pm
D&D is definitely aware that we can’t please everyone and that no matter what happens or what cards are created there are some people who will just post complaint after complaint after tired complaint. We don’t really pretend to please those people anymore.
I think that's a much healthier approach. :thumbs:
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by Apollyon »

sac89837 wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 11:39 am
Every single collectable card game has a lot of unplayable, bad cards in it. I play Yu-Gi-Oh with my son and they just hit 10k cards in the card pool. Is it the nature of v-slips and the arts and crafts aspect that makes card bloat more of an issue for star Wars? Or is it something else?
SWCCG is really unique in how the game is designed (which is also its big weakness). In most of the high-volume CCGs, you have a bunch of roughly interchangeable bodies. For instance, you can play a 2/2 with an ability for 2 in Magic and it's going to be roughly the same as a 2/2 with a different ability for 2 from a few sets ago. There's very little specificity in what that card is or represents. A Red Deck Wins list from 2006 and 2016 look reasonably similar (cheap guys + burn), even though they share no/few cards (outside of Mountain).

SWCCG has a much stronger relation between cards and much more overall text on each card. When I talk about relations between cards, it's about what you can pull, what objectives want to do (BHBM/TIGIH/Black Sun), etc. As such, the game is more complicated and restricted in terms of rules, design, and deckbuilding.
Wokling wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 11:56 am
Erratas are somewhat clunky, for the reasons stated above. How are they handled on the PDFs? Are the cards literally blacked over and there is a separate PDF containing all erratas?
Usually, there's a central "2019 errata" PDF and the previous PDFs get updated.
I keep seeing calls for a rotation. What's that exactly? When cards (or entire sets) are taken out of the legal play pool, but with the understanding that they may be reintroduced into the pool at a future date? That doesn't seem so bad. New cards are more fun though.
Rotation is when sets are no longer legal in the standard format. There's no guarantees that cards can come back. This does a bunch of things:

1) Frees up design space. There's usually a few vacuums for cards that open up when you rotate stuff. The designers have a new chance to create a card to fill that niche.

2) Top of class cards go away and new decks can rise up. Let's say that control decks are good for a year. Some of the cards rotate out and new ones come in, and aggro is better another year. This lets the game change and evolve without having to explicitly address cards.

3) Slight problem cards go away. Something might be too good, but it's not warping the game enough to merit a ban. Designing counters for those cards generally hasn't really been healthy for the game. Either the cards come too late (in rotating formats), are dead weight, or are everywhere because they are pushed.

4) New deckbuilding/playing challenges. After a certain point, a game (and deck/metagame) becomes 'solved' and stale. New cards might only displace a card or two in an existing strategy, and the deck continues in a slightly better form. Rotation means that the game can change organically (rather than an explicit designer intention to change something). Maybe a lynchpin card/mechanic from one set leaves and decks need to adjust for that. Maybe decks stay, but they need to change their strategies because a card got replaced with a slightly weaker/more narrow version.

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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by sac89837 »

Apollyon wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 7:51 pm
SWCCG is really unique in how the game is designed (which is also its big weakness). In most of the high-volume CCGs, you have a bunch of roughly interchangeable bodies.
I disagree with this. I think this is only true of magic and Pokemon, but no other CCG. I think Star Wars is only middle of the road in terms of complexity of card interactions. More complex than Transformers, MLP, Keyforge but less than Thrones or Yu-Gi-Oh. I would put it even with NetRunner.

Also I think there is plenty of unexplored design space currently. We aren't nearly as constrained as other CCGs when it comes to new themes and new mechanics.
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by rhendon »

sac89837 wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 8:35 pm
Apollyon wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 7:51 pm
SWCCG is really unique in how the game is designed (which is also its big weakness). In most of the high-volume CCGs, you have a bunch of roughly interchangeable bodies.
I disagree with this. I think this is only true of magic and Pokemon, but no other CCG. I think Star Wars is only middle of the road in terms of complexity of card interactions. More complex than Transformers, MLP, Keyforge but less than Thrones or Yu-Gi-Oh. I would put it even with NetRunner.

Also I think there is plenty of unexplored design space currently. We aren't nearly as constrained as other CCGs when it comes to new themes and new mechanics.
The problem with SWCCG and the complexity is poorly written cards and rules from an era when having those streamlined wasn't a thing. So there are a lot of weird timing issues or card interactions that you don't see elsewhere because the rules are more streamlined or the cards have proper wording/keywords.

I do agree about design space but I also know that designing cards isn't easy. Coming up with the new mechanics and properly testing/vetting them is a lot of work and for volunteers this can take a lot longer to go through than someone that gets paid to do it.
Corran wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 2:09 pm
Jawa Cup's success had a lot of factors beyond people being tired of Open. It couldn't have existed without the popularity of GEMP, where at any given time about 10% of games are played in alternate formats(not to mention a place where I can play in a tournament against Europeans at 2 in the afternoon on a wednesday). It also came after two majors and a summer of events in the same Open format. There was a consensus even among people like me that a handful of decks had risen to the top.

If Jawa Cup brought some people back into things, that's awesome, but if nobody was playing GEMP and enjoying the Open format all summer, it would not have been a success.
GEMP has done a lot for the game. Without it, the open format wouldn't be where it is. I don't think events would be as highly attended. GEMP has done so much to increase enjoyment in playing the game.

I did come back because of the jawa format. I had literally zero interest in playing in a field of TRM, OA, ROPs, and Map. At worlds , ROPs/Map were 10 of the top 16 finisher decks. OA, TRM were 9 of the top 16. At John Anderson, Map and ROPs were 8 of the 16. TRM/OA were 6 of 16. At Euro's, it was 7/16 and 7/16. Literally 3 events and half of the top 16 were the same almost at each of them. Yawn. No Idea started to take off, and if I included that in there it would have almost been the entire top 16. But that was at least a newish deck. ROPs has been around forever in some fashion. TRM has been around even longer. OA has been near the top for a long time now as has Map. I like in Jawa Cup that these aren't available and I find the format exciting because of it.

I do think it will be nice to not see LMFBM/TRM going forward. ROPs is definitely taking a minor hit. OA as well. So maybe this will knock them down in power level to allow other decks to be played more. That is a healthy thing. Meta needs to change and evolve. What we had was a stagnant one over the last year and people definitely got tired of it. Jawa fixed that and it showed in drawing a lot of people in. This is why I thought Menzel's suggestion of after worlds rebalancing idea was a great one.
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by Shewski »

Did I hear reset? Gosh that was 5 years ago?

It may have helped break me, but I think it was a right call for the game at the time. I'm very interested hearing calls for it once more. :popcrn:
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by tomtom »

This errata set is really cool! Good job, guys.
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Re: Set 12 errata

Post by ketwol »

Great job guys. Looking forward to the tournament circuit next year :epic:

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