Variance should be Paramount

SWCCG game play discussion.
rhendon
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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by rhendon »

If anything, GLG1 is actually a good counter for redraws. However, I'd say GLG1 should be changed to not affect you forcing the opponent to redraw. If they choose to use GMTv, then they are gaining an advantage, its ok to have a cost. If you are forcing them to redraw (Luke or Legend forget what makes them redraw), then it is you gaining the advantage, and they shouldn't be punished for that.



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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by Wokling »

Pantherpike wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 4:16 pm
Wokling wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 9:49 am
Apollyon wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 7:54 pm
Wokling wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 3:51 pm
Legend is maybe the least fun deck I have ever played with or against. Force Projection is a big part of that (the redraw is also a big part of that).
Would it work better if redrawing was a separate mechanic from "cancel" + "draw"? That prevents a lot of the interactions like GLiG1/Map.
No. The redraw is bad by itself. GLG1 just takes it to an extreme.
I think what he is talking about is having GLG1 not affect redraws. GLG1 says "use 1 Force to draw a card..." whereas the redraw cards such as Grand Moff Tarkin (v) say "may cancel and redraw that battle destiny".

You could argue that GLG1 does not affect redraws at all as it is using a different wording than what GLG1 specifically references (you are not drawing a BD, you are redrawing one). If this is a NPE issue with GLG1 and multiple "redraw" interrupts/card effects then this would be a very logical answer to removing that NPE. It makes sense too. If you leave 1 Force knowing GLG1 is at the system, you should be able to get a BD. You use 1 force to draw one and from then on it's all redraws which are not impacted by GLG1. Just my .02
I understood what he was talking about it. My view is that the redraw text on Legend is a problem, irrespective of GLG1.

Anyway, I also didn't mean to hijack Hayes' thread on variance.

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by droidpimp »

I played from Prem - Reflection II. Started playing again during the pandemic. What I've noticed is how everything is so efficient now. Too efficient.
  • So many cards pulled from reserve, probably on 1st turn. If your deck doesn't pull all its locations by turn 2 you are probably going to lose.
  • There used to be tradeoffs between deploy, forfeit, power, gametext, and desitny. Not anymore. I know Decipher started this change, but at least the maintenance cards have a major drawback to offset the other efficiencies.
  • So many destiny adders that aren't interrupts. It's sad that Mara in Ship + Random Imp Pilot is more efficient than any Falcon/Pilot combo out there.
  • Between the destiny adding characters, higher overall destiny, pulling so many 0s and 1s out of decks, and destiny redraws, the entire drawing destiny mechanic feels off.
  • DS having better retrieval options and more destiny adders than LS just feels weird.
  • Every deck being able to play every shield seems like a lazy sideboard concept. In other games you generally have to think about your sideboard and how it works with your deck. If we're going to keep it as is can we get a "add all the shields" shortcut button in gemp deckbuilder lol
I'd just like to see some reduced efficiency across the board. Something that adds a cost to downloading cards seems like a really obvious choice. And the deploy cost modifiers that Decipher starting using with mains in Jabba's Palace and later sets was a good method. Helps guide those characters to being used in certain decks, without eliminating eliminating them from other builds completely.

Thanks to the PC for all the hard work in keeping things alive. Really cool to be able to come back to this after 20 years. Now you got me driving up prices on ebay :lol:

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by The_Emp »

droidpimp wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 11:11 pm
I played from Prem - Reflection II. Started playing again during the pandemic. What I've noticed is how everything is so efficient now. Too efficient.
  • So many cards pulled from reserve, probably on 1st turn. If your deck doesn't pull all its locations by turn 2 you are probably going to lose.
  • There used to be tradeoffs between deploy, forfeit, power, gametext, and desitny. Not anymore. I know Decipher started this change, but at least the maintenance cards have a major drawback to offset the other efficiencies.
  • So many destiny adders that aren't interrupts. It's sad that Mara in Ship + Random Imp Pilot is more efficient than any Falcon/Pilot combo out there.
  • Between the destiny adding characters, higher overall destiny, pulling so many 0s and 1s out of decks, and destiny redraws, the entire drawing destiny mechanic feels off.
  • DS having better retrieval options and more destiny adders than LS just feels weird.
  • Every deck being able to play every shield seems like a lazy sideboard concept. In other games you generally have to think about your sideboard and how it works with your deck. If we're going to keep it as is can we get a "add all the shields" shortcut button in gemp deckbuilder lol
I'd just like to see some reduced efficiency across the board. Something that adds a cost to downloading cards seems like a really obvious choice. And the deploy cost modifiers that Decipher starting using with mains in Jabba's Palace and later sets was a good method. Helps guide those characters to being used in certain decks, without eliminating eliminating them from other builds completely.

Thanks to the PC for all the hard work in keeping things alive. Really cool to be able to come back to this after 20 years. Now you got me driving up prices on ebay :lol:
X2. Nailed it. Good examples how we have drifted away from the Decipher precedents. Which is typical in later virtual sets but even mechanics such as Blaster Rack v/Sai Tor v and Imperial Justice v/Evac Control v completely change the game. Just important things to keep in mind when we revert back to Decipher era and begin to release our first Virtual block set and where to go from there moving forward.

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by allstarz97 »

Decipher era:

Premiere only: Essentially unplayable, battles didn't really ever happen, revolution/scanning crew issues, many cards had to be errata'd out the gate. Would be unplayable with current attention spans, bear in mind this was 25 years ago.

Premiere + anh: Some issues were fixed, but games had red cards battling it out more than characters at sites. Kiffex and Kashyyyk mean that monkey ties are now a real thing. Picture playing otsd sealed, minus the good fixed ships, where your packs of premeiere contained 9x sense and 2-3x djas puhr and boshek.

Premiere + anh + hoth: Not a huge change, ls has ebo but no way to set it up reliably. Some decks are more directed, but high variance in setting up.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ None of these formats would "feel" like swccg to 90% of the community, 80% of the remaining 10% would be like, "oh, yeah, that was pretty rough haha"

+Dagobah ... ok, umm cheese dominated for awhile, errata hit some, bullets came down the line later, a lot of the cheese didn't get hit... the dagobah system was absurd for LS putting it pretty largely in front.

+ CC... ds get's projective telepathy to help fix the AFA issue, but can't draw cards because of frozen assets every other turn.. Oh, all this time ds has gotten some really cool looking cards they can never play like the executor, the bounty hunters and their ships weapons. LS get's the best pilot in the game too so if it does want to play the falcon with captain han at kessel wedge and 9x anger fear aggressions it certainly can.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every set after that contained pull chains and ways to more reliably set up. From Se's objectives, IAO/Insurrection, Jabba's palace (with expand the empire start) to unltimately ds2 releasing mpoints, iao, and prep d all in the same set to offer redundant turn 1 setups. After DS2, the jpotsd and ref 2, tatooine, coruscant, theed and the ref 3 premium cards just curved up the power and mechanics to invalidate 80% of the card pool.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There have been some really great stretches of the game during the decipher days, but also some really bad ones that would NOT hold up today. Additionally, the great formats (pre-jp, pre-ds2, pre-ref 2, others) would get really stale given the advent of gemp.. back then the viable decks were very slims, 3-4 per side. It's also very important to note that this time frame represents 5 years of a total 25 years, or 20% of the games existence. The peaks and valley's of the decipher made cards have been mirrored with PC design, from lower power, to high power, to creeped, to convoluted. I hate the posts that make it seem like the decipher era was somehow more important than any other stretch of time... like for 20 years the PC has been just pumping out stuff that wasn't well thought out or something. I've played since Dag btw.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do I think the game is perfect now? Not at all, it is too redundant and we've got a major issue with characters all containing interrupt gametext with them, And a lot of the points here are valid, but I think the "players are activating and getting their locations all out" is something that can be said about the game at any point post cloud city. Also, I think we are suffering from major "back in my day..." blissful memories and are forgetting about AFA loops, trm with nudjis, and wys decks that didn't let you activate.

Additionally the 30-50 creeped cards that decipher made in 2001 make it really difficult for the PC to NOT creep their designs. in 2002 and 2003 decks contained maybe 3-10 virtual cards as senate watto and combat and huntdown all duked it out against each other. So every base set either needs to contain a bunch of bullets, a bunch of power, or errata's which we have a pretty hard stance on.

$.02

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by Jnapolit31 »

The_Emp wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 3:12 pm
droidpimp wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 11:11 pm
I played from Prem - Reflection II. Started playing again during the pandemic. What I've noticed is how everything is so efficient now. Too efficient.
  • So many cards pulled from reserve, probably on 1st turn. If your deck doesn't pull all its locations by turn 2 you are probably going to lose.
  • There used to be tradeoffs between deploy, forfeit, power, gametext, and desitny. Not anymore. I know Decipher started this change, but at least the maintenance cards have a major drawback to offset the other efficiencies.
  • So many destiny adders that aren't interrupts. It's sad that Mara in Ship + Random Imp Pilot is more efficient than any Falcon/Pilot combo out there.
  • Between the destiny adding characters, higher overall destiny, pulling so many 0s and 1s out of decks, and destiny redraws, the entire drawing destiny mechanic feels off.
  • DS having better retrieval options and more destiny adders than LS just feels weird.
  • Every deck being able to play every shield seems like a lazy sideboard concept. In other games you generally have to think about your sideboard and how it works with your deck. If we're going to keep it as is can we get a "add all the shields" shortcut button in gemp deckbuilder lol
I'd just like to see some reduced efficiency across the board. Something that adds a cost to downloading cards seems like a really obvious choice. And the deploy cost modifiers that Decipher starting using with mains in Jabba's Palace and later sets was a good method. Helps guide those characters to being used in certain decks, without eliminating eliminating them from other builds completely.

Thanks to the PC for all the hard work in keeping things alive. Really cool to be able to come back to this after 20 years. Now you got me driving up prices on ebay :lol:
X2. Nailed it. Good examples how we have drifted away from the Decipher precedents. Which is typical in later virtual sets but even mechanics such as Blaster Rack v/Sai Tor v and Imperial Justice v/Evac Control v completely change the game. Just important things to keep in mind when we revert back to Decipher era and begin to release our first Virtual block set and where to go from there moving forward.
Are you implying Decipher precedents were always good ones? Because that is certainly not the case, as Justin points out well above.
Also, did I miss an announcement somewhere - we're reverting back to Decipher era? Please link me! :-D
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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by quesosauce37 »

just listen to Justin Desai people
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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by meaglyn »

quesosauce37 wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:14 pm
just listen to Justin Desai people
Forum names please... we don't all know who is who otherwise.

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by quesosauce37 »

meaglyn wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 8:46 pm
quesosauce37 wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 7:14 pm
just listen to Justin Desai people
Forum names please... we don't all know who is who otherwise.
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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by Thekillerkiwi »

allstarz97 wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 4:33 pm
Decipher era:

Premiere only: Essentially unplayable, battles didn't really ever happen, revolution/scanning crew issues, many cards had to be errata'd out the gate. Would be unplayable with current attention spans, bear in mind this was 25 years ago.

Premiere + anh: Some issues were fixed, but games had red cards battling it out more than characters at sites. Kiffex and Kashyyyk mean that monkey ties are now a real thing. Picture playing otsd sealed, minus the good fixed ships, where your packs of premeiere contained 9x sense and 2-3x djas puhr and boshek.

Premiere + anh + hoth: Not a huge change, ls has ebo but no way to set it up reliably. Some decks are more directed, but high variance in setting up.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ None of these formats would "feel" like swccg to 90% of the community, 80% of the remaining 10% would be like, "oh, yeah, that was pretty rough haha"

+Dagobah ... ok, umm cheese dominated for awhile, errata hit some, bullets came down the line later, a lot of the cheese didn't get hit... the dagobah system was absurd for LS putting it pretty largely in front.

+ CC... ds get's projective telepathy to help fix the AFA issue, but can't draw cards because of frozen assets every other turn.. Oh, all this time ds has gotten some really cool looking cards they can never play like the executor, the bounty hunters and their ships weapons. LS get's the best pilot in the game too so if it does want to play the falcon with captain han at kessel wedge and 9x anger fear aggressions it certainly can.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every set after that contained pull chains and ways to more reliably set up. From Se's objectives, IAO/Insurrection, Jabba's palace (with expand the empire start) to unltimately ds2 releasing mpoints, iao, and prep d all in the same set to offer redundant turn 1 setups. After DS2, the jpotsd and ref 2, tatooine, coruscant, theed and the ref 3 premium cards just curved up the power and mechanics to invalidate 80% of the card pool.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There have been some really great stretches of the game during the decipher days, but also some really bad ones that would NOT hold up today. Additionally, the great formats (pre-jp, pre-ds2, pre-ref 2, others) would get really stale given the advent of gemp.. back then the viable decks were very slims, 3-4 per side. It's also very important to note that this time frame represents 5 years of a total 25 years, or 20% of the games existence. The peaks and valley's of the decipher made cards have been mirrored with PC design, from lower power, to high power, to creeped, to convoluted. I hate the posts that make it seem like the decipher era was somehow more important than any other stretch of time... like for 20 years the PC has been just pumping out stuff that wasn't well thought out or something. I've played since Dag btw.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do I think the game is perfect now? Not at all, it is too redundant and we've got a major issue with characters all containing interrupt gametext with them, And a lot of the points here are valid, but I think the "players are activating and getting their locations all out" is something that can be said about the game at any point post cloud city. Also, I think we are suffering from major "back in my day..." blissful memories and are forgetting about AFA loops, trm with nudjis, and wys decks that didn't let you activate.

Additionally the 30-50 creeped cards that decipher made in 2001 make it really difficult for the PC to NOT creep their designs. in 2002 and 2003 decks contained maybe 3-10 virtual cards as senate watto and combat and huntdown all duked it out against each other. So every base set either needs to contain a bunch of bullets, a bunch of power, or errata's which we have a pretty hard stance on.

$.02
x2

I remember playing back then and the experience went on a roller coaster of fun to frustrating all the time. Justin is right, we often look back with rose colored glasses, but the reality is Decipher made some pretty disastrous cards that are the opposite of fun. I started playing with my friends roughly when ANH came out and I am so happy we have moved beyond those days.

Sure setups are fast, but I would rather have that than spend 10 turns staring at my opponent while one of us drains for 1 and the other draws to find locations and cards to deploy. Then, after you draw to 20 cards, you get grimnocked/scanning screwed only to have to deal with arconas and not have enough senses to cancel the reacts.
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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by droidpimp »

Why are multiple people interpreting these comments as "let's return to the SAC war and inserts era". No one said any of that. Searching for a strawman to beat down I guess.

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by Wokling »

droidpimp wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 1:36 pm
Why are multiple people interpreting these comments as "let's return to the SAC war and inserts era". No one said any of that. Searching for a strawman to beat down I guess.
It may be because the guy who followed up to your post said "X2. Nailed it. Good examples how we have drifted away from the Decipher precedents."

I also stepped away from the game for a long period, about 16 years, and found your critiques perfectly valid. Though I do think shields improved the game and would not describe them as a "lazy sideboard concept." Properly playing shields is its own skill.

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by TacoBill »

I took his "lazy sideboard" comment as a criticism of being able to put all shields under the SE rather than having to choose them, not of shields in general.
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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by Jnapolit31 »

Wokling wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 3:28 pm
droidpimp wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 1:36 pm
Why are multiple people interpreting these comments as "let's return to the SAC war and inserts era". No one said any of that. Searching for a strawman to beat down I guess.
It may be because the guy who followed up to your post said "X2. Nailed it. Good examples how we have drifted away from the Decipher precedents."
Yeah, this
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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by arebelspy »

Damn, Justin allstarz, that post was fantastic.

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by allstarz97 »

Appreciate those who enjoyed my post, but it wasn't meant to be contentious in the least, droidpimp, sorry you took it that way. Nor was it meant to be an "I win post". Happy to have you back!

I just think it's very easy for any of us who took any substantial amount of time off from the game (longest for me was 4-5 years) and then come back and be like, "wait, why is the game not how I left it- let's work to get it back to that version of the game" without being cognizant that if the game was in any constant state from 2003-2020 it would be a colossal failure and that the PC has bobbed and weaved really well to change when change was needed and stay constant when that was the best course of action.

While the decipher days will certainly rank amongst the most special years playing the game for those who got to play during that time (certainly were for me) - I think it is much better to continue the evolution of the game rather than try to anchor it back to those days. It's like coo high school experiences, they were great... but i don't want to try and re-live them, that would be sad.

-------------

All that being said, I actually agree with some of the points about characters doing too much, the same cards being played etc, but I just think it's important to have the point about the evolution needed from 2003-2020 as being really important to consider.

-------------

last random post, i wonder what the meta would look like with no starting interupts. :popcrn:

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by droidpimp »

TacoBill wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 3:35 pm
I took his "lazy sideboard" comment as a criticism of being able to put all shields under the SE rather than having to choose them, not of shields in general.
This is what I meant. No thought goes into building the sideboard, it's just an add all the shields approach. I should have offered more context as that was lazy writing on my part. Unfortunately, I also think addressing this would be a ton of work, something you could probably dedicate an entire "v-set sprint" to and still not be done. And I would have it way down the priority list, as Shields work as-is. It's just the elegance of the execution that can be debated.

One question. Why did Order to Engage get killed outright? Can't we just reduce the damage by 1 or 2. My favorite card is dead. :explode

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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by TechTerror »

Wokling wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 3:28 pm
droidpimp wrote:
July 2nd, 2020, 1:36 pm
Why are multiple people interpreting these comments as "let's return to the SAC war and inserts era". No one said any of that. Searching for a strawman to beat down I guess.
It may be because the guy who followed up to your post said "X2. Nailed it. Good examples how we have drifted away from the Decipher precedents."
I couldn't follow why these old NPE and arduous game mechanics were assumed either, because I know the_emp (aka the guy who said x2 nailed it) and if you go back to his previous posts, I think what he meant by "decipher precedents" were:

Powerful cards are balanced out with low destinies(maintenance cards obviously weren't quite balanced out well enough but normally this was how it worked with some exceptions)

Amazing character text is balanced with a force cost (e.g. Commander Igar, General Solo, \/ things cost a force or two)

Amazing character text or power balanced out with low forfeit, high deploy, low power, etc (e.g. Ephant Mon, Jodo Kast, Kitik'keed'kak, Mosep)

Powerful interrupts are not only low destiny but often are lost

Deployment restrictions or reduced deployment costs allowed some higher power cards to be limited to certain decktypes/locations

You can group some scrubbier cards together but get some cumulative benefits which can make scrub cards into viable decks instead of everyone playing only the most powerful and cost efficient cards.

I don't think he meant "we had 6 floating zeros and played lots of NPE cards"
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Re: Variance should be Paramount

Post by alphabeta »

My 2 cents - havent played a lot recently but its true motivation isnt very high either.

-pulling locations from objectives is fine BUT should cost 1 Force to do so
-pulling locations should only be allowed on the 0 side. It doesnt make sense to be able to still pull sites when you already get bonuses from the flip side.

-i am tired of destiny creep. Even characters are getting boosts.
-this is combined with so many BD adders and BD redrawers that it is quite annoying

-DnD should be asking the question whether or not virtual sets should mostly (exclusively?) focus on competitive plays rather than fun, perhaps closed environments. Covid has brought tons of returning players to the game, they re not interested in competitive decks but want to have fun. We want to keep them? Better adjust our course. Thematic decks that arent competitive in open format but balanced in closed environments are more likely to lock in NARPs and bring them to more competitive play down the road.

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