What would your solution be to balance TRM?

SWCCG game play discussion.
The_Emp
Booster Pack
Booster Pack
Posts: 141
Joined: December 3rd, 2017, 5:32 pm
GEMP Username: The_Emp

What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by The_Emp »

Figured I would start a separate thread. A very common problem I see come up time and time again when attempting to balance the game, or release new cards, or prepare for a reset, is the issue of TRM.
The most common points I've seen made over the years with the problem with TRM (not my own) and in no order of importance is:
- High destiny, free location 2-0/3-0 pullers
- That LS gets to start first
- Wokling giving it +1 activation

I'm sure I am missing several so let me know and I'll update the list.

Personally, my proposed solution is not to ban anything, rather it is to reward the opponent playing against TRM, or to penalize the opponent for playing TRM.
I'm usually not in the camp of banning, shielding, or card rotation. Rather, I'm usually in the camp of either 1) increasing the risk to an opponent for playing a specific card, or 2) increasing the reward to the opponent for achieving something:
In regards to balancing TRM (more directly related towards after a reset) would be:
-An effect or character that turns the Jedi Council into a battle ground if you occupy it (thus risk to the TRM player and it get's around the shield)
- A card that makes the opponent lose 1 force for every non-battleground they deploy (except the Dagobah or Ach-Tos, or even Galactic Senate)
- A card(s) to discourage docking bays, such as giving +1 activation to the opponent for each non-battleground docking bay on table as well as +1 drains at opponents docking bays.

Note - I think the redraw cards, Rey, Like My Father Before me v, Rescue in the Clouds v, Han Chewie & the Falcon v and powerful characters also greatly contribute towards TRM being powerful, but again I'm discussing things more in line with design considerations once we have a reset.

I'm hoping we can get some great ideas and suggestions for D&D to use to help us in developing new cards come the next reset, whenever it is.



Hayes
LS Region: Kashyyyk
LS Region: Kashyyyk
Posts: 4806
Joined: February 22nd, 2009, 1:58 am

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Hayes »

In of itself, there is nothing imbalanced about TRM. Other decks are capable of giving up 0 icons as well. It just scales extremely well with power creep because it can always use the best cards. A reset would need to occur that eliminates wokling, and perhaps ties key characters to specific objections or locations (much in the same way old mains could only deploy to X, or deployed -2 to X). Another reason TRM is "good" right now is that there isn't a really viable space deck (since TTO is DOA).

Let's just wait and see what 13 brings before we reinvent the wheel.

Berm
Reflections Pack
Reflections Pack
Posts: 243
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 5:43 pm

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Berm »

According to my Design was a good option - allowing you to get some benefit if LS plays TRM in certain decks.

The following is not something I think is the best way to balance TRM - but it is one way I think often overlooked and would help to balance TRM by curbing it's efficiency.

I think if the individual LS characters were not so powerful/versatile, we would find more reason to play other objectives. Rey, Solo, Anakin all do to many things are are proficient on ground & space. When is the last time you saw Captain Han in a deck - it's absurd to replace the best space character Han with a virtual card that is also better than all ground versions as well (excepting niche decks). No single Luke is even a good pilot and good on ground.

Creating characters that are so proficient in both theaters will lead to decks like TRM becoming better, since they get more efficient.


edit: I also agree with Hayes that a DS space deck would be a natural balance to TRM.

arebelspy
Member
Posts: 16719
Joined: July 14th, 2005, 4:45 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by arebelspy »

I don't think TRM is in itself a problem. Having a strong LS mains and toys deck is good for the game.

The biggest problem I see with it right now is that it's essentially one dimensional (ground), but can have REALLY amazing space by adding 1 card (tantive), and sometimes a destiny 6 puller (fly casual).

Because you're playing solo, rey, hera, anakin, padme, etc. anyways. Even without space. Then adding in that one card makes you dual theater (and can make non bg systems into BGs), which is just ridiculous.

In a future reset having all the ls utility characters be amazing pilots would not be ideal.

And when DS space was more prominent, trm just threw in might/bail/organa v to make its space even more ridic with very few card slots (add attrition destiny in space, add bd, make immune to weapons).

What DS space needs is a helper that is like "unless at least 2 starships at a system, [bad things happen]" Similar to the power -2 AO, but 2 power is such a minor thing. More punishing. And make it not tied to starfighter and capital, just 2 ships. So they have to devote more slots, and dig for it.

User avatar
Darth_Link
World Champion
World Champion
Posts: 8540
Joined: May 24th, 2011, 4:43 am

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Darth_Link »

put "add 1 LS icon unless Y4:TR on table" on Wokling v is the only thing I'd do.
You go first, you play your powerful stuff, but your activation is kinda crap.
Emil W. Sweden
ImageImage

Corran
Reflections Gold
Reflections Gold
Posts: 2866
Joined: June 20th, 2004, 4:53 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
GEMP Username: corran
Contact:

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Corran »

I’ve said this before, and people smarter than me told me I was wrong, but I would change battleground rules so that any location where both sides had presence And/or force icons was a battleground. This would disincentivize players from relying on twixes for activation.
Check out Bad Deck Breakdowns, a Star Wars CCG Deckbuilding podcast, on the podcatcher of your choice or https://www.kendallcast.ninja
dvphimself wrote: https://www.twitch.tv/kendallcastnetwork/ is my favourite SWCCG channel.
seitaer wrote: Corran's streams are great, even if he likes the last jedi

User avatar
Madmanwithabox
Member
Posts: 2134
Joined: October 13th, 2014, 2:25 pm
Location: Ireland
GEMP Username: Tardis

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Madmanwithabox »

I liked the approach Decipher took in later sets - high deploy, with a -2 modifier for going to their thematic locations. The virtual sets have mostly done away with this, causing a lot of virtual mains to turn up in TRM.

I’d like to have seen Rey as deploy 6, -2 to Jakku, for example - which would make the choices more based around your locations, than just dudes who can cheaply go anywhere.
New or returning player? Click here for the information you need to know.

Beat me mercilessly on GEMP: Tardis
Say hello at an event:Darren
Image

Image

User avatar
seitaer
Member
Posts: 2059
Joined: July 14th, 2012, 1:35 pm
GEMP Username: seitaer

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by seitaer »

Hunter was right. Yavin IV: Throne room shouldn't exist.

As long as the decipher cards at the core of the deck exist, the deck is going to exist. You could reset everything again, and wesa, speak, and the throne room would still be a thing.

DVD ROTS
LS Region: Coruscant
LS Region: Coruscant
Posts: 1456
Joined: December 30th, 2004, 4:14 pm
Location: Stanford, CA/Northern NJ
Contact:

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by DVD ROTS »

Madmanwithabox wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 4:19 pm
I liked the approach Decipher took in later sets - high deploy, with a -2 modifier for going to their thematic locations. The virtual sets have mostly done away with this, causing a lot of virtual mains to turn up in TRM.

I’d like to have seen Rey as deploy 6, -2 to Jakku, for example - which would make the choices more based around your locations, than just dudes who can cheaply go anywhere.
I've found Poe to be a good example of this, btw - powerful character, but not really pullable, not tremendously versatile, and fairly expensive for the ability number, with a little bonus if he's going to Jakku. Unsurprisingly, very few TRM decks play him.
Kevbozzz wrote:When you're crushing Hyperdrive with BHBM, Booker doesn't come rappelling through your kitchen window demanding that you play real decks.

Jedicon
Enhanced Product
Enhanced Product
Posts: 744
Joined: June 28th, 2012, 2:06 am

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Jedicon »

seitaer wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 5:26 pm
Hunter was right. Yavin IV: Throne room shouldn't exist.

As long as the decipher cards at the core of the deck exist, the deck is going to exist. You could reset everything again, and wesa, speak, and the throne room would still be a thing.
I think there are things design can do to reward the DS player/punish the LS player for playing TRM.

User avatar
seitaer
Member
Posts: 2059
Joined: July 14th, 2012, 1:35 pm
GEMP Username: seitaer

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by seitaer »

Jedicon wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 6:29 pm
seitaer wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 5:26 pm
Hunter was right. Yavin IV: Throne room shouldn't exist.

As long as the decipher cards at the core of the deck exist, the deck is going to exist. You could reset everything again, and wesa, speak, and the throne room would still be a thing.
I think there are things design can do to reward the DS player/punish the LS player for playing TRM.
Everything done so far has been too weak or too narrow. It was like all the senate counters before the shield. It has to be something both strong enough to deter playing TRM, but not strong enough to stop people from playing TRM while also having a reason to play it outside of that matchup.

Jedicon
Enhanced Product
Enhanced Product
Posts: 744
Joined: June 28th, 2012, 2:06 am

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Jedicon »

seitaer wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 6:42 pm
Jedicon wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 6:29 pm
seitaer wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 5:26 pm
Hunter was right. Yavin IV: Throne room shouldn't exist.

As long as the decipher cards at the core of the deck exist, the deck is going to exist. You could reset everything again, and wesa, speak, and the throne room would still be a thing.
I think there are things design can do to reward the DS player/punish the LS player for playing TRM.
Everything done so far has been too weak or too narrow. It was like all the senate counters before the shield. It has to be something both strong enough to deter playing TRM, but not strong enough to stop people from playing TRM while also having a reason to play it outside of that matchup.
Why this?

Hazardville
LS Region: Tatooine
LS Region: Tatooine
Posts: 688
Joined: January 28th, 2018, 5:37 am
GEMP Username: Jagteq

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Hazardville »

seitaer wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 5:26 pm
Hunter was right. Yavin IV: Throne room shouldn't exist.

As long as the decipher cards at the core of the deck exist, the deck is going to exist. You could reset everything again, and wesa, speak, and the throne room would still be a thing.
This is my biggest sticking point, and why I think all the talk about changing location pull chains and whatnot, while useful, isn't going to lead to a solution by itself. Because, no matter what we do (unless we're willing to ban Decipher cards), TRM still gets to play this activation engine of 4 Wesa, 3 Speak, JCC, BNC, Insurrection combo, 2 non-BG Docking Bays, and give up no icons while generating 9 force on their own, up to 11/2 if they play the Battle Plains. Yes, virtual cards like Wokling exacerbate it, but that core remains in place in a no-V cards format, and every platform Design tries to make has to contend with that. Can we really say that Starkiller Base or Xizor's Palace should cost force to use, or Imperial Entanglements, when that would just make it harder for those decks to compete with TRM?

Reducing the utility of LS mini-mains would certainly help (Anakin/Rey/Solo being the biggest multi-theatre culprits but Hera/Padme/Ahsoka aren't doing us any favors either). Reducing the power of LS utility interrupts like Jedi Lev and Rescue would also help. But at the core of it, as long as Throne Room itself exists, this deck will exist due to the choices Decipher made, unless we're willing to drop the hammer hard on it. I'm not sure if that's better or worse.
Justin Miyashiro
Image

Jedicon
Enhanced Product
Enhanced Product
Posts: 744
Joined: June 28th, 2012, 2:06 am

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Jedicon »

Hazardville wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 8:00 pm
seitaer wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 5:26 pm
Hunter was right. Yavin IV: Throne room shouldn't exist.

As long as the decipher cards at the core of the deck exist, the deck is going to exist. You could reset everything again, and wesa, speak, and the throne room would still be a thing.
This is my biggest sticking point, and why I think all the talk about changing location pull chains and whatnot, while useful, isn't going to lead to a solution by itself. Because, no matter what we do (unless we're willing to ban Decipher cards), TRM still gets to play this activation engine of 4 Wesa, 3 Speak, JCC, BNC, Insurrection combo, 2 non-BG Docking Bays, and give up no icons while generating 9 force on their own, up to 11/2 if they play the Battle Plains. Yes, virtual cards like Wokling exacerbate it, but that core remains in place in a no-V cards format, and every platform Design tries to make has to contend with that. Can we really say that Starkiller Base or Xizor's Palace should cost force to use, or Imperial Entanglements, when that would just make it harder for those decks to compete with TRM?

Reducing the utility of LS mini-mains would certainly help (Anakin/Rey/Solo being the biggest multi-theatre culprits but Hera/Padme/Ahsoka aren't doing us any favors either). Reducing the power of LS utility interrupts like Jedi Lev and Rescue would also help. But at the core of it, as long as Throne Room itself exists, this deck will exist due to the choices Decipher made, unless we're willing to drop the hammer hard on it. I'm not sure if that's better or worse.
Image

The_Emp
Booster Pack
Booster Pack
Posts: 141
Joined: December 3rd, 2017, 5:32 pm
GEMP Username: The_Emp

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by The_Emp »

Hayes wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 2:12 pm
In of itself, there is nothing imbalanced about TRM. ... and perhaps ties key characters to specific objections or locations (much in the same way old mains could only deploy to X, or deployed -2 to X).
Yeah I agree with you there, I don't think TRM is unbalanced, and don't want to get rid of it. I'm curious to hear people's solution to balancing it so we don't power creep up everything else to compete with it.
I also agree that location deployment restrictions on characters are actually good for the game and create diversity of cards played, but I also liked even more how Decipher balanced with deploy cost, but added incentive to play characters at certain locations.
Berm wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 2:21 pm
Creating characters that are so proficient in both theaters will lead to decks like TRM becoming better, since they get more efficient.
Definitely agree with you there, and agree with others' suggestions about deployment restrictions and/or higher deploy cost with benefits when deployed to certain locations.
arebelspy wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 3:24 pm
I don't think TRM is in itself a problem. Having a strong LS mains and toys deck is good for the game.
The biggest problem I see with it right now is that it's essentially one dimensional (ground), but can have REALLY amazing space by adding 1 card (tantive), and sometimes a destiny 6 puller (fly casual).
What DS space needs is a helper that is like "unless at least 2 starships at a system, [bad things happen]" Similar to the power -2 AO, but 2 power is such a minor thing. More punishing. And make it not tied to starfighter and capital, just 2 ships. So they have to devote more slots, and dig for it.
Agreed, TRM isn't a problem and it's good to have LS mains in the game for sure. Tantiv 4v and HCFv exacerbate the problem and reduce down the space package needed.
I like your idea about space. Perhaps a Search and Destroy type effect for space that doesn't have to have Droid Starfighters like At Last We Are Getting Results. That could certainly encourage balanced decks similar to how Battle Plan/Order does.

The_Emp
Booster Pack
Booster Pack
Posts: 141
Joined: December 3rd, 2017, 5:32 pm
GEMP Username: The_Emp

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by The_Emp »

Hazardville wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 8:00 pm
seitaer wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 5:26 pm
Hunter was right. Yavin IV: Throne room shouldn't exist.

As long as the decipher cards at the core of the deck exist, the deck is going to exist. You could reset everything again, and wesa, speak, and the throne room would still be a thing.
This is my biggest sticking point, and why I think all the talk about changing location pull chains and whatnot, while useful, isn't going to lead to a solution by itself. Because, no matter what we do (unless we're willing to ban Decipher cards), TRM still gets to play this activation engine of 4 Wesa, 3 Speak, JCC, BNC, Insurrection combo, 2 non-BG Docking Bays, and give up no icons while generating 9 force on their own, up to 11/2 if they play the Battle Plains. Yes, virtual cards like Wokling exacerbate it, but that core remains in place in a no-V cards format, and every platform Design tries to make has to contend with that. Can we really say that Starkiller Base or Xizor's Palace should cost force to use, or Imperial Entanglements, when that would just make it harder for those decks to compete with TRM?

Reducing the utility of LS mini-mains would certainly help (Anakin/Rey/Solo being the biggest multi-theatre culprits but Hera/Padme/Ahsoka aren't doing us any favors either). Reducing the power of LS utility interrupts like Jedi Lev and Rescue would also help. But at the core of it, as long as Throne Room itself exists, this deck will exist due to the choices Decipher made, unless we're willing to drop the hammer hard on it. I'm not sure if that's better or worse.
Yeah I think that will certainly help with the character packages changing, but you hit the nail on the head, and that's why I'm curious to see what ideas people have that they can come up with, similar to what Jedicon mentioned: "I think there are things design can do to reward the DS player/punish the LS player for playing TRM." I think that is the best solution and feel like it could be with JCC or Docking Bays (to also prevent docking bay wars like the old days).

The_Emp
Booster Pack
Booster Pack
Posts: 141
Joined: December 3rd, 2017, 5:32 pm
GEMP Username: The_Emp

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by The_Emp »

Madmanwithabox wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 4:19 pm
I liked the approach Decipher took in later sets - high deploy, with a -2 modifier for going to their thematic locations. The virtual sets have mostly done away with this, causing a lot of virtual mains to turn up in TRM.

I’d like to have seen Rey as deploy 6, -2 to Jakku, for example - which would make the choices more based around your locations, than just dudes who can cheaply go anywhere.
100% agree, in fact I think we should bring back maintenance cards. If we want power creep that is a good way to balance it back out, plus we'll undoubtedly have maintenance card counters to balance out the decipher maintenance cards.
A great example I wish D&D would have done with HCFv, the fact that it costs 40% of the cost of the executor, is likely just if not more powerful, draws a destiny on its own, has good immunity and forfeit, can add 2 pilots AND it's not a maintenance card was :??? to me. I understand they released it to balance the current meta so in the current state it's not as bad, but I'll forever remember that card in the future because of how powerful and efficient it is. To me it immediately improved LS ground even more than it already was, since you can get by with running solely HCFv long enough as needed in almost all cases - its so efficient. I think making it a maintenance card would have been better balance.
Most people seem like they dislike maintenance cards but it was a great idea by decipher (although not executed how it could have been) to release more powerful cards but was balanced by being offset as an expensive resource.

Jedicon
Enhanced Product
Enhanced Product
Posts: 744
Joined: June 28th, 2012, 2:06 am

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Jedicon »

The_Emp wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 10:50 pm
Madmanwithabox wrote:
June 9th, 2020, 4:19 pm
I liked the approach Decipher took in later sets - high deploy, with a -2 modifier for going to their thematic locations. The virtual sets have mostly done away with this, causing a lot of virtual mains to turn up in TRM.

I’d like to have seen Rey as deploy 6, -2 to Jakku, for example - which would make the choices more based around your locations, than just dudes who can cheaply go anywhere.
100% agree, in fact I think we should bring back maintenance cards. If we want power creep that is a good way to balance it back out, plus we'll undoubtedly have maintenance card counters to balance out the decipher maintenance cards.
A great example I wish D&D would have done with HCFv, the fact that it costs 40% of the cost of the executor, is likely just if not more powerful, draws a destiny on its own, has good immunity and forfeit, can add 2 pilots AND it's not a maintenance card was :??? to me. I understand they released it to balance the current meta so in the current state it's not as bad, but I'll forever remember that card in the future because of how powerful and efficient it is. To me it immediately improved LS ground even more than it already was, since you can get by with running solely HCFv long enough as needed in almost all cases - its so efficient. I think making it a maintenance card would have been better balance.
Most people seem like they dislike maintenance cards but it was a great idea by decipher (although not executed how it could have been) to release more powerful cards but was balanced by being offset as an expensive resource.
I think D&D is under the assumption that the MOST anyone is paying for the OG Executor is 10 force.

I expect they're right.

User avatar
stephengascrub
Member
Posts: 1465
Joined: April 15th, 2011, 11:17 pm
Location: Georgia
GEMP Username: Polymers55

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by stephengascrub »

Throne Room won 51% of its games in the OCS in May. Legend won 64% of its games. Both of these had large enough sample sizes (50+ games) to where the results are reliable.

When TRM is winning over 10% less games then Legend, it probably doesn’t need to be fixed. Instead, the problem is people don’t like the deck. Well guess what, I don’t like OA or No Idea. I don’t enjoy playing them or against them, but think decks like that are key to the game’s health. So are decks like TRM.


I think Throne Room is fine as is, but if you want to hurt the deck make it so you can’t play Wokling (v). First turn force is important, and the ability to retrieve a lightsaber is far from trivial.

If you make Throne Room unplayable or ban it, you’re going to get a lot of unhappy people. And I’m not just talking about your run of the mill players like me. There are good players who are involved in the game who would probably also be upset if the card was just blanked or banned. And I don’t think it needs to be. It’s been around since the beginning of the game. So have Elis and Nabrun. Monnok and Grimtaash have been almost as long.

Edit: TRM itself isn’t the problem, it’s the critical mass of good virtual characters, ships, and interrupts you can put in this deck.
Stephen M.
Dagobah Region

Image

Image



-Team The Bad Batch

Corran
Reflections Gold
Reflections Gold
Posts: 2866
Joined: June 20th, 2004, 4:53 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
GEMP Username: corran
Contact:

Re: What would your solution be to balance TRM?

Post by Corran »

I have a P-RII format TRM deck on GEMP. I lose every game I play with it, sometimes by a lot. Throne Room isn't dominant in every format, and there should be a "Good Cards" deck at any given time.
Check out Bad Deck Breakdowns, a Star Wars CCG Deckbuilding podcast, on the podcatcher of your choice or https://www.kendallcast.ninja
dvphimself wrote: https://www.twitch.tv/kendallcastnetwork/ is my favourite SWCCG channel.
seitaer wrote: Corran's streams are great, even if he likes the last jedi

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”