General thoughts post-Major

SWCCG game play discussion.
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Jedicon »

chriskelly wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 4:06 pm
I disagree about the information thing a bit (I’m one of the worst fight klubbers there is. I post pretty liberally in some threads and slack and in private message conversations and anyone who has attended a major with me and gotten the infamous group meal knows I’m always seeking feedback and bouncing ideas off of people), but if it makes people happy to have me codify the basic precept of my posts elsewhere, that’s fine. However i just don’t want it to be a sword against us in the event something happens not in the thread (for example, if not for a timing snaffu, there probably already would have been a r’tic errata. That wasn’t really in the public domain of late, so if we announced that I wouldn’t want someone complaining that they didn’t know it was coming).

Thank you for sharing this insight. I'm curious what the thought process is behind delaying announcing an errata until after an event vs. announcing an errata with a delayed effect (ie. errata becomes effective in 2-4 weeks)?



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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Hazardville »

Jedicon wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 4:13 pm
chriskelly wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 4:06 pm
I disagree about the information thing a bit (I’m one of the worst fight klubbers there is. I post pretty liberally in some threads and slack and in private message conversations and anyone who has attended a major with me and gotten the infamous group meal knows I’m always seeking feedback and bouncing ideas off of people), but if it makes people happy to have me codify the basic precept of my posts elsewhere, that’s fine. However i just don’t want it to be a sword against us in the event something happens not in the thread (for example, if not for a timing snaffu, there probably already would have been a r’tic errata. That wasn’t really in the public domain of late, so if we announced that I wouldn’t want someone complaining that they didn’t know it was coming).

Thank you for sharing this insight. I'm curious what the thought process is behind delaying announcing an errata until after an event vs. announcing an errata with a delayed effect (ie. errata becomes effective in 2-4 weeks)?
I'd say with the increased online presence of our game, I would much rather errata be announced effective immediately than to say "here's what the change is going to be, it will be effective in X weeks." That would just lead to a dead lame-duck meta for X weeks while we're waiting for the game to go "live" again. M:TG used to do this with banning becoming effective on the 20th (or something) of the month that it was announced in, but that was over a decade ago, when online play was much less and so you'd have maybe a week or two of missed weekend events. Nowadays M:TG also does their banning announcements effective immediately, partly due to the prevalence of online gaming, and I think it's good that we do too.
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Jedicon »

Hazardville wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 4:18 pm
Jedicon wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 4:13 pm
chriskelly wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 4:06 pm
I disagree about the information thing a bit (I’m one of the worst fight klubbers there is. I post pretty liberally in some threads and slack and in private message conversations and anyone who has attended a major with me and gotten the infamous group meal knows I’m always seeking feedback and bouncing ideas off of people), but if it makes people happy to have me codify the basic precept of my posts elsewhere, that’s fine. However i just don’t want it to be a sword against us in the event something happens not in the thread (for example, if not for a timing snaffu, there probably already would have been a r’tic errata. That wasn’t really in the public domain of late, so if we announced that I wouldn’t want someone complaining that they didn’t know it was coming).

Thank you for sharing this insight. I'm curious what the thought process is behind delaying announcing an errata until after an event vs. announcing an errata with a delayed effect (ie. errata becomes effective in 2-4 weeks)?
I'd say with the increased online presence of our game, I would much rather errata be announced effective immediately than to say "here's what the change is going to be, it will be effective in X weeks." That would just lead to a dead lame-duck meta for X weeks while we're waiting for the game to go "live" again. M:TG used to do this with banning becoming effective on the 20th (or something) of the month that it was announced in, but that was over a decade ago, when online play was much less and so you'd have maybe a week or two of missed weekend events. Nowadays M:TG also does their banning announcements effective immediately, partly due to the prevalence of online gaming, and I think it's good that we do too.
I suppose that makes sense.

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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by arebelspy »

TacoBill wrote:
arebelspy wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 3:42 pm
I agree with essentially all of that post. And think it should be used as a template to move the PC forward.

One part I disagree with:
TacoBill wrote: -Commentary should be looked at under the lens of teams. I'm not going to sit here on a 16-person team and tell you that we're doing everything right, but we should really look for this in live events where decks can't be changed as frequently. Top players doing commentary is fantastic, but
maybe a player shouldn't be doing commentary for a match where the winner will play their teammate (if you follow that).
For two reasons.

1) We don't have enough streamers as it is. Today I stepped in when Bastian was real tired and couldn't do it and no one else was able. Idk who these guys are playing next, but it was better to have it commentated than not.

2) It's not actually an advantage to commentate it. The commentators don't see anything anyone else does.

Like, if I commentate a game and the winner will play my teammate the next round, yes, I saw the game and could talk to my teammate about it. But if someone else commentated (say, Bastian), and I watched, I would still see the game, still see the same reserve verifications, etc.

If anything, me commentating is more advantageous for the guy not on the team--he gets to hear my thoughts. My teammate will already hear those thoughts, now the guy he's playing will get them too.

That's besides the whole could change decks thing.

If commentators got access to something other people don't get (say, decklists), I'd agree. That's unfair. But they don't. They see everything anyone else watching a stream or the game sees. So I just don't see any advantage they'd gain by commentating. It seems totally irrelevant to me who commentates.

In fact, it could be their next round opponent himself commentating it and I don't see an advantage they'd gain by talking about it out loud rather than watching it (if anything a disadvantage).
So I guess this is more focused on streaming live play than it is steaming online play, since you can't change decks for live play. One of the things we should watch out for is if we have a hypothetical top-4 of you vs Hayes and Shaw vs BFred. Someone like Eric* should not be the commentator for the Shaw/BFred match if it can be helped, since he will see literally every card in both decks.

* Not saying Eric or anyone does or would do this, but if we can, lets get rid of potential conflicts of interest.
I see what you mean.

Sure, for top 8 for live events, we should try to have a non-teammate stream someone they might play next (later at all?).

But someone is better than no one, so if it has to be that, then that. But try not to for sure.

Usually IRL we have more people willing to stream than the one game that can be streamed.

Online, this shouldn't be an issue for the reasons I outlined.

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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by arebelspy »

Wokling wrote:
TacoBill wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 3:45 pm
chriskelly wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 3:33 pm
To be frank, (almost) every time a public cbt thread is started, we start one internally or discuss on slack. So that’s probably a decent “watch list” indicator.

For example, a lot of us don’t think R2 is an issue at all but I’d expect a few changes to be pushed out that include him because of that public thread. Obviously timing is sensitive because of moving parts in the design process and other changes we want to make (errata on old cards or adjustment to future cards) and that there’s still an event going on.
And I'm pretty sure anyone that's worked with/in/around D&D knows that's the case, but the real TL;DR of this post is about communication. If you (D&D) overtly state "These are what we're looking at" that gives me more confidence than me thinking you're looking at things when maybe you aren't.
Chris has just told us that anything on the Competitive Balance forums is discussed by D&D. Not sure there needs to be a sticky at the top of the CB forums saying, "D&D is now considering the following cards" with a list of all the cards in CB forums. But maybe it'd help because it at least signals "we hear you." Silence from known members of D&D on the CB forums does make you feel like D&D is ignoring the conversation. At the same time, I respect that D&D isn't and shouldn't be obligated to chime in on every thread. They should have the leeway to work on things privately.
They DISCUSS every card brought up. But may not be watching them all, or have already dismissed them.

I'd appreciate a sticky'd Watch List that listed all the CBT thread topics and sorted them as:

High Priority- The majority of D&D agrees this card is a problem, and plans to change at some point and looking at options (options which might include new cards as natural predators or counters, not just erratal

Watching- D&D recognizes this may be a problem, but might not be, and will keep an eye on it

Aware of- D&D recognizes there are complaints, but does not feel these cards are issues and is not currently discussing fixes.

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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by allstarz97 »

Skimming mainly but it feels like we’re ignoring that so much of this is fluid, and there aren’t like board meetings behind the scenes. So it kinda takes prolonged consensus to move things to errata etc.

Like no idea was pretty safe then data arose about it being good, which led to more people playing it, and winning, more games, more ls formulaic wins, so now it’s to the point where discussions start to happen bit public and private- there’s not like an errata’d version ready to go at a buttons push.

A card like R2 has some people against it but it has a lot who think it’s fine, I’ve lost a handful of games as ls cuz I leaned to heavily on it, I don’t think it’s quite down the same path as nonidea or where rops/lmfbm were pre errata.

So in summary, I think it’s just important to realize that this is more of a grassroots approach, and just because one group gets some inertia about what the meta is, the people behind the curtain have to also recognize those who are enjoying it, etc.

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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Shadow 13 »

TacoBill wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:34 pm
-Taking out our team members (who play a good amount of No Idea), No Idea is winning 60% of its games in the OCS over the last 3 months (107 game sample). Its doing too much. I don't have the answer, but some themes keep popping up over and over with regard to what is deemed overpowered: +2 modifiers (or 2s in general, ie Stardust), pulling characters integral to the deck, canceling destinies (rather than targetings), too much text on characters. No Idea does all of these.
I've been thinking about this lately as I keep coming up with dream cards, and I honestly think that in the next reset, all of the game text icons created by the PC in the first few V-sets should be eliminated. All of them, /\ \/ [Immune to Sense/Alter/Control] [Pilot], etc etc.
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by TacoBill »

Shadow 13 wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 4:56 pm
TacoBill wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:34 pm
-Taking out our team members (who play a good amount of No Idea), No Idea is winning 60% of its games in the OCS over the last 3 months (107 game sample). Its doing too much. I don't have the answer, but some themes keep popping up over and over with regard to what is deemed overpowered: +2 modifiers (or 2s in general, ie Stardust), pulling characters integral to the deck, canceling destinies (rather than targetings), too much text on characters. No Idea does all of these.
I've been thinking about this lately as I keep coming up with dream cards, and I honestly think that in the next reset, all of the game text icons created by the PC in the first few V-sets should be eliminated. All of them, /\ \/ [Immune to Sense/Alter/Control] [Pilot], etc etc.
From my time as a PCD, I know that all cards must be able to spell out each of those things.
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by CoffeePass »

TacoBill wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:34 pm
Has there been any further discussion to something I've seen Jarad mention all the time in Slack, which is doing away with 'sets' and releasing cards in smaller batches? This would keep us from long downtimes between set releases where the meta is starting to be solved (due to the sheer volume of Gemp games, which is a good thing) and keep options fresh.
I think this is a fantastic idea that I feel like would have near universal buy-in from both players (always fun to get new cards) and D&D (since they can do more timely targeting of the meta or just release fun -- like Han's Dice or the new Executor site -- whenever they are done). Individual cards could be released at a specific time each month (and obviously skip a month if there are no new cards) and then there could be "mini-sets" that have more involved sub-themes (like a new Objectives with related sites/characters/helpers) released just whenever they are done.

I think there would be a small logistical issue of how to keep track of which cards are in which set (e.g. would there just be a arbitrary cut-off date for going from "Set 13" to "Set 14" since organizing by sets seems important for v-slip PDFs and finding cards on Scomp Link/GEMP), but easily solved.

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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by rhendon »

TacoBill wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:34 pm

Tournament/Logistics concerns
-One of the biggest issues we have is a lack of redundancy. We have plenty of people willing to help with things, but they don't know where to go where they will be best utilized, or some people feel like they have to do more than they should and refuse help. It would be good to identify who is serving in what advocate roles and who is working with them on a team. For each event that we have (live or otherwise) we should be identifying a primary director, a secondary director, etc. Basically nothing should be 1-person deep because that person is going to inevitably burn out/leave the community/fall asleep on stream/etc.
You and I are both examples of people wanting to help and pushing through something. You had the idea of Jawa Cup and I setup TMW. I don't know about you, but I'm assuming our actions were similar. We both saw a void that we wanted to fill (OCS top 16 left void of online and COVID left void in all play) and we came up with solutions. We reached out to the PC and said this is what we wanted to do and we did it.

Part of the problem with volunteers for the PC is the PC needs help in a lot of ways. If someone has an idea to make things better, do it. GEMP wasn't a PC funded project. PC didn't even ask for it. Tbiesty literally made it on his own, in his free time. Our game is better off because of it.

Jawa format didn't exist until Tacobill had a vision and came up with it. Then he posted and pushed it and the event took off. The new format wasn't a PC idea. It was a player idea that turned into something great.

TMW wasn't something the PC came up with. I did. I had an idea to 'replace' Nats and do an online event. I also wanted to do prep work for any future majors online that we had to do because of COVID. I sent an email out to advocates (Matt, CK, Schoe and Scott). I worked with Matt on getting it done. No one voiced any major concerns and we worked through some minor issues. I then did the post and started pushing things. After that initial push by me, I started to get support from the various branches within the PC for prize support, streaming, GEMP setup, PC store signup, etc.

Our streaming at events was PC pushed since a lot of it was Scott but we had a lot of players help out at multiple events and run with it. Our Twitch page was a push by me to move the PC forward with GEMP play. Holotheatre was an idea I had and Jerry signed up with very early on. This was something that we both put a lot of work into on our own and took charge of. PC gave us support but it was entirely player created/driven. When I left, Dan stepped up and continued the player taking control process.

Foils were setup as a prize created by Euros. We started with the Euro foils that created a really insane craze but have moved to foil vslips and its fun to go to events and get collectibles like that. All of that was player created first and then supported by PC.

The point being that not all of the things that end up being great are PC pushed or thought of and then they ask for volunteers. Some of them are players stepping up and doing things and getting PC support after they start. If a player has an idea, they should reach out to advocates and see what happens. Start working on things and moving from there.

If you want to do something, do it. Create a plan and send it to the advocate team. Send it to Matt C or CK. One of them will definitely respond and point you in the right direction. Hell, PM me and I'll figure out where to send you. Just be ready to do a lot of the groundwork and get it off the ground. The PC will support projects and will help players achieve awesome things, but it doesn't always come up with the ideas on its own and if you come up with something, you need to be the one willing to do the work. If you are, the PC will give you all the support they can.
TacoBill wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:34 pm
-I think its time we created a position of stream coordinator. It shouldn't fall to the TD to direct who should be on stream and who is streaming it. This person can also provide links to the community, can answer people who want to stream with who/what they should be streaming, etc.
I've been asking for this for years. If I hadn't quit going to live events, I imagine we would have this by now. I didn't do the above advice and wanted someone else to do it and they likely didn't have same vision.

We do need a stream producer at events and for our online ones. They coordinate all the games getting picked for stream at event, manage message board posts, twitter posts, etc. The commentators have a lot on their plate just doing the commentating. The TD has a lot on his plate trying to manage the event. We need a position to help both of them reduce their loads. At TMW, Dan and I were definitely overwhelmed. At past events I've been TD of, I've gotten overwhelmed at times running the event, stream, rules, etc. The best events I've run, I've had someone there. Worlds 2016 would have been a lot worse if not for Scott's friend that showed up to help. He sort of filled that role and it was huge.
TacoBill wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:34 pm
-Commentary should be looked at under the lens of teams. I'm not going to sit here on a 16-person team and tell you that we're doing everything right, but we should really look for this in live events where decks can't be changed as frequently. Top players doing commentary is fantastic, but
maybe a player shouldn't be doing commentary for a match where the winner will play their teammate (if you follow that).
This is hard because we lack a lot of commentators. We need people willing to do it. I thought it was incredible the amount of people wanting to do this at TMW. But for past events like Endor in Jan, we didn't have a lot of people ask to help out. It ended up being Gogolen in the morning before I got on and did the rest. Then Jerry had someone from the event stream with him on day 2. I also don't think it matters in formats where players can change decks to remove scouting. At live events though, anyone watching would have same info as commentator so there isn't much we can do. Other than ask players to follow the golden rule and not be a dick and scout.
TacoBill wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:34 pm
-Pod play is good. Its increasingly likely that we will be running Worlds (or something similar to it) online, and we should make every attempt to accommodate players in different time zones that want to play. Even if not for 1 big tournament, running a 'major' starting at 5am EST would allow for Europeans to play while still possibly bringing in some East Coast players and Kyle (who will likely be up from the night before still). Additionally, running an event on West coast time would make it so they don't have to get up as early for an event. (Bastian has since raised a good point about making sure all players are subject to the same competition. While that is something I can definitely get behind, we wouldn't be the only game to run Day 1a/Day 1b of Worlds, even if we might be the smallest).
Its probably in some fashion the best way to hold online majors. It breaks things up and smooths out the event. It isn't the same as IRL, but we can't really look to achieve that with online. We just have to do the best we can with what we are given.

I had some more thoughts on the communication section that I'll get ready later. This was already quite long.
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Corran »

My take here is pretty simple. If you don't trust that the people in charge are listening to the CBT threads, and want to see what's coming then get involved in that process. Playtesting is open, Proofing is always looking for people. As a player, your platform is basically the forums, slack, and the GEMP chat window. If you want insight as to what's going on behind the scenes, then go behind the scenes and help. If you aren't interested in helping, then I think D&D, through participating in CBT discussions and pushing through errata, is doing a great job of being transparent.

I quit the game in 2014 when I learned that the Reset team had been created right after TMW that year. The decision to reset virtual cards had been finalized, but we thought it was still up for debate so the community spent the next six months in a flame war over whether or not we needed a reset. Transparency is very important to me. Today's D&D is doing a great job in that area.
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Bib Fortuna »

Shadow 13 wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 4:56 pm
TacoBill wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:34 pm
-Taking out our team members (who play a good amount of No Idea), No Idea is winning 60% of its games in the OCS over the last 3 months (107 game sample). Its doing too much. I don't have the answer, but some themes keep popping up over and over with regard to what is deemed overpowered: +2 modifiers (or 2s in general, ie Stardust), pulling characters integral to the deck, canceling destinies (rather than targetings), too much text on characters. No Idea does all of these.
I've been thinking about this lately as I keep coming up with dream cards, and I honestly think that in the next reset, all of the game text icons created by the PC in the first few V-sets should be eliminated. All of them, /\ \/ [Immune to Sense/Alter/Control] [Pilot], etc etc.
I’ve always been curious as to why Rey’s Encampment has the download text spelled out, rather than using the \/ shortcut.

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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Darth_Link »

Removing simple tricks but not Coward?

What's the IE debate? I mean, it's not that good right now, or are you mainly talking about starting cards on table? Cause that can definitely be done right, like Tigh or Invasion shows. And imo OA as well.
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Darth_Link »

Hayes wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 3:12 pm
chriskelly wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:47 pm
Reporting this post because of the hate on Sebulba...
I'm guessing you're trying to be funny, but there is a lot of quality and substance to TacoBills's post. It's irreverent for the first reply from a red handle to be nothing more than a bad joke.
But the 2nd post from the playtesting lead should tell us that we can't joke? /s

On a more serious note, I understand where you are coming from, but like CK says, you have to be able to have fun. And joking is a part of that. If all D&D can do in this game is swallow complaints, discuss cards/changes and be serious all the time, then why bother?

Same thing as in the CB thread where Bill thought I was dismissive, yet others could make the exact same type of joke/posts without being called out. There are players and regular humans behind the D&D handles who try to enjoy the game and community. Do D&D members need to have 2 separate accounts to be able to post a non-D&D post? Not everything we post is directly related to our roles in D&D.

In recent years there has been a trend that there is less fun and jokes on the boards. Maybe this is an effect of very few Euros frequenting the forums these days cause there is a huge diference in how we approach the game online. When we meet up, the 2 communities are more like 1. But online the US community is rougher around the edges and more competitive, less prone to jokes, pranks and fun. We euros mostly just spend our time online in this game with friendly banter against each other, and try not to take it too seriously.

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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by JarJarDrinks »

the cost is u can miss the sebulba pull. I prefer ozzel.
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I would be all for a reset if I get to be on the reset team
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Death Star »

Darth_Link wrote:
August 24th, 2020, 8:05 am
We euros mostly just spend our time online in this game with friendly banter against each other, and try not to take it too seriously.
Exactly! Well spoken, Emil. ;)
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by chriskelly »

Death Star wrote:
August 24th, 2020, 8:12 am
Darth_Link wrote:
August 24th, 2020, 8:05 am
We euros mostly just spend our time online in this game with friendly banter against each other, and try not to take it too seriously.
Exactly! Well spoken, Emil. ;)
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by JarJarDrinks »

Hayes wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 3:12 pm
chriskelly wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:47 pm
Reporting this post because of the hate on Sebulba...
I'm guessing you're trying to be funny, but there is a lot of quality and substance to TacoBills's post. It's irreverent for the first reply from a red handle to be nothing more than a bad joke.
and unbunch ur panties dude.

You know dern well Chris Kelly is gonna give this long, obviously thought out, and serious post from a longtime player and friend the attention it deserves.
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I would be all for a reset if I get to be on the reset team
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Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by TacoBill »

JarJarDrinks wrote:
August 24th, 2020, 8:43 am
Hayes wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 3:12 pm
chriskelly wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:47 pm
Reporting this post because of the hate on Sebulba...
I'm guessing you're trying to be funny, but there is a lot of quality and substance to TacoBills's post. It's irreverent for the first reply from a red handle to be nothing more than a bad joke.
and unbunch ur panties dude.

You know dern well Chris Kelly is gonna give this long, obviously thought out, and serious post from a longtime player and friend the attention it deserves.
This definiely just sounds like you volunteering him, and now he has to do it.
Bill Kafer
Image
Cam Solusar wrote:What TacoBill proposes is ideal IMO.
Corran wrote:Honestly, Tacobill should just be the boss of SWCCG.

Wokling
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Posts: 502
Joined: February 8th, 2019, 11:26 am
GEMP Username: ototoi

Re: General thoughts post-Major

Post by Wokling »

Darth_Link wrote:
August 24th, 2020, 8:05 am
Hayes wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 3:12 pm
chriskelly wrote:
August 23rd, 2020, 2:47 pm
Reporting this post because of the hate on Sebulba...
I'm guessing you're trying to be funny, but there is a lot of quality and substance to TacoBills's post. It's irreverent for the first reply from a red handle to be nothing more than a bad joke.
But the 2nd post from the playtesting lead should tell us that we can't joke? /s

On a more serious note, I understand where you are coming from, but like CK says, you have to be able to have fun. And joking is a part of that. If all D&D can do in this game is swallow complaints, discuss cards/changes and be serious all the time, then why bother?

Same thing as in the CB thread where Bill thought I was dismissive, yet others could make the exact same type of joke/posts without being called out. There are players and regular humans behind the D&D handles who try to enjoy the game and community. Do D&D members need to have 2 separate accounts to be able to post a non-D&D post? Not everything we post is directly related to our roles in D&D.

In recent years there has been a trend that there is less fun and jokes on the boards. Maybe this is an effect of very few Euros frequenting the forums these days cause there is a huge diference in how we approach the game online. When we meet up, the 2 communities are more like 1. But online the US community is rougher around the edges and more competitive, less prone to jokes, pranks and fun. We euros mostly just spend our time online in this game with friendly banter against each other, and try not to take it too seriously.

Why so serious.gif
This is a game for fun, not life and death.
It was clear to me that Chris was making a joke and was not being mean spirited, but all he needed to do was add a sentence after the first to show that he was taking it seriously. Unfortunately, it's different when you have an official position. Like it or not, you wear two hats. And it's very different when you respond to an extremely long and thoughtful post touching on how to improve the game, tournaments, and the PC.

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