9/24 CBT Update Discussion

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TacoBill
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9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by TacoBill »

posting.php?mode=quote&f=304&p=1311016
These changes will not be in effect for OCS round 1, but are upcoming (and expect this list to be updated soon as well):
- R2-D2 (v): will no longer recur to Used Pile
- R'tic H'weei: will only get to steal Force during LS player's turn
- Make Ten Men Feel Like A Hundred: will not \/ Saw (or make him a Resistance Agent)
- Saw Guerra: will not cancel any [Immune to Sense] Interrupt
- Stardust: the ping will be 1
- No Idea: the +2 deploy modifier will be stricken on the 0 side and the 7 side POOP a Rebel to cancel a destiny text will instead be POOP a rebel to stop a weapon from targeting a spy
- Kir Kanos (V): will have further restrictions on when he can cancel an Interrupt
- Moff Gideon: his stormtrooper \/ will be -2 and only at his site
- Wokling (V): cannot be started if Massassi Throne Room on table.
I, for one, welcome our new Legend overlords.

I like all of the No Idea errata. The wording on Saw is ambiguous, as it seems like its open to interpretation whether he will still be able to cancel anything (same with Kir, though phrased differently). R'tic is a good change. You still might see him in the CCT builds, but that force denial/stealing version won't be as prevalent imo. R2 not going Used is also good; you'll definitely see him played as long as ISB is at the top of the curve (and HD may be relevant again with No Idea toned down some). Gideon is almost exactly the text I wanted him to be (-1 would be perfect imo), but may not be enough to dethrone ISB as the top DS deck.

Others' thoughts?
Last edited by TacoBill on September 24th, 2020, 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

TacoBill wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:04 pm
- R2-D2 (v): will no longer recur to Used Pile -- :yes:
- R'tic H'weei: will only get to steal Force during LS player's turn -- :(
- Make Ten Men Feel Like A Hundred: will not \/ Saw (or make him a Resistance Agent) -- :yes:
- Saw Guerra: will not cancel any [Immune to Sense] Interrupt -- :yes:
- Stardust: the ping will be 1 -- :yes: :yes: :yes:
- No Idea: the +2 deploy modifier will be stricken on the 0 side and the 7 side POOP a Rebel to cancel a destiny text will instead be POOP a rebel to stop a weapon from targeting a spy :yes:
- Kir Kanos (V): will have further restrictions on when he can cancel an Interrupt -- :(
- Moff Gideon: his stormtrooper \/ will be -2 and only at his site -- :yes:
I like most of the changes.

I don't think r'tic was bad enough to warrant changing (was essentially never in event winning decks), and now I don't think he'll see play.

I don't think Kir needs a change. By contrast Saw I'm only fine removing that cause he did too much. Remove something from him. That one? Sure. Kir doesn't do too much (essentially two things--upload myn, sometimes if myn is in rd, and cancel interrupt).

Gideon is still super good.

And ISB needs way more done to it to make it worse. This is not nearly enough. And agree Taco that legend is ridic. It could use a few minor tweaks (Like wish luke didn't pull force projection.. and maybe the flip side tweaked).

The best change is stardust ping meaning EVERY ds no longer has to start with 1x decree (and often burn a starting slot on it). Love that.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by chriskelly »

FWIW the Kir change wasn't something because he was running rampant, but he was becoming a design constraint.

And R'tic was a similar change that he wasn't imblacing the games, but a lot of players voiced that he was NPE to steal force on DS turn.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

chriskelly wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:34 pm
FWIW the Kir change wasn't something because he was running rampant, but he was becoming a design constraint.
Like, you couldn't design interrupts cause they might be cancelled?
And R'tic was a similar change that he wasn't imblacing the games, but a lot of players voiced that he was NPE to steal force on DS turn.
Hmm. I'd be curious on quantitative rather than qualitative data on that. Like, he may be frustrating at first, until you learn to play against him, but is he problematic? idk. Without a game imbalance, I don't see errata as necessary. But YMMV obviously.

Heck, I'd rather he just have a line "cancels broken concentration"

Then he could still do his thing and be playable, but you couldn't steal a bunch of force, or use BC to take their final force saved. That seems like a much better solution to me than leaving the broken con problem. I'd assume most people who say rtic is NPE would also say them saving one for houjix and then having BC take it is NPE. And it's really the combo of them together, so him cancelling it solves that.

Because now you can still steal 3 force with that combo (2 on their turn, 1 on yours), just not 4. Limiting his to one turn doesn't solve the problem. Cancelling broken con does.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by TacoBill »

I imagine they didn't go that route because Broken has a playable (YMMV) counter in Effective combo.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by TacoBill »

Edited to include Wokling change. I still don't get the TRM hate, but this brings down a notch, possibly a big notch (and possibly kills it). But its shown it can reinvent itself, so we'll see. Further cements Legend as the top LS deck.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by spideyguy0 »

Feels like maybe they went too far on No Idea? I know they were trying to avoid another Map situation where it took several rounds of errata, but making 5 different changes to the deck at once feels excessive.

I also hate the Wokling decision. Hate. Effectively kills TRM as a competitive deck. It's HITCO or Legend now. TRM wasn't a meta problem and I dislike when a classic decktype is weakened partially in order to push virtual objectives. That was a big part of what accelerated us towards the reset.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

TacoBill wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:40 pm
I imagine they didn't go that route because Broken has a playable (YMMV) counter in Effective combo.
If that were true, a fix wouldn't be needed. The counter isn't great, but still would do its thing (how many times has it been used to cancel broken? And it still can).

Solving the r'tic/broken seems better to me than making rtic/broken only steal 3 instead of 4.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

TacoBill wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:45 pm
Edited to include Wokling change.
What in the flying f.

WHY?? :noshake: :noshake: :noshake:

TRM becomes unplayable.

From someone who is not in any inner circles of knowledge, this is what it looks like from an outside perspective:
Let's remove lmfbm so only hitco can play it.. next wokling.. force everyone to hitco! :(

next thing you know they'll give hitco helpers in v13.
Last edited by arebelspy on September 24th, 2020, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by rhendon »

arebelspy wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:56 pm
TacoBill wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:45 pm
Edited to include Wokling change.
What in the flying f.

WHY?? :noshake: :noshake: :noshake:

TRM becomes unplayable.

From someone who is not in any inner circles of knowledge, this is what it looks like from an outside perspective:
Let's remove lmfbm so only hitco can play it.. next wokling.. force everyone to chris kelly's hitco pet! :(

next thing you know they'll give hitco helpers in v13.
This is unnecessary. You can be upset by the changes and voice your opinions on them but no need to attack Chris Kelly with it.

Chris does a lot of work for this game and for fun. He isn't paid for his work. He and his team do the best they can. You don't have to always agree with it but at least keep it respectful. We're all on the same side here and want what is best for the community.

If you didn't mean for this to come off as an attack on CK, then I'm sorry. It is how it read to be and I don't want this to just become a bash *insert volunteer here* thread.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by AdmiralMotti89 »

Whatever happens with which cards getting errata, please number the "E" so one can tell just by looking at the corner of the card if it is the first, second, etc. errata, to make it easier to know if one is up to date.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Dr. Hayus »

It seems the errata on Wokling is a contentious issue. Most of the other errata is pretty straight forward. Could someone elaborate on the logic here?

FYI, I don’t care for TRM, and in spite of this would still like to understand the thought process here.

Thanks in advance (I hope),

Hayus.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Shadow 13 »

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 9:15 pm
Whatever happens with which cards getting errata, please number the "E" so one can tell just by looking at the corner of the card if it is the first, second, etc. errata, to make it easier to know if one is up to date.
agreed
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by TacoBill »

rhendon wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 9:09 pm
arebelspy wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:56 pm
TacoBill wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:45 pm
Edited to include Wokling change.
What in the flying f.

WHY?? :noshake: :noshake: :noshake:

TRM becomes unplayable.

From someone who is not in any inner circles of knowledge, this is what it looks like from an outside perspective:
Let's remove lmfbm so only hitco can play it.. next wokling.. force everyone to chris kelly's hitco pet! :(

next thing you know they'll give hitco helpers in v13.
This is unnecessary. You can be upset by the changes and voice your opinions on them but no need to attack Chris Kelly with it.

Chris does a lot of work for this game and for fun. He isn't paid for his work. He and his team do the best they can. You don't have to always agree with it but at least keep it respectful. We're all on the same side here and want what is best for the community.

If you didn't mean for this to come off as an attack on CK, then I'm sorry. It is how it read to be and I don't want this to just become a bash *insert volunteer here* thread.
To me, this reads as an attack on CK's perceived design strategy (valid point) and not CK himself (which would not be a valid point).
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by CoffeePass »

Dr. Hayus wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 9:33 pm
It seems the errata on Wokling is a contentious issue. Most of the other errata is pretty straight forward. Could someone elaborate on the logic here?

FYI, I don’t care for TRM, and in spite of this would still like to understand the thought process here.

Thanks in advance (I hope),

Hayus.
TRM has traditionally been a powerful deck because (a) it can play every good card and (b) doesn't give up any activation (which is then boosted by it going first and getting a +3-5 force with a Turn 1 Light Side otherwise lacks). Wokling effectively lets it start another 1/0 so it fits nicely into that game plan (keep in mind basically every Light Side deck starts Wokling), and can retrieve a key card (like a Lightsaber to then redeply with Sai'tor) and, tertiarily, can pull something like Relatively Unprotected.

In the abstract, I like this errata: TRM has been around forever and these generic "good card piles" aren't something people enjoy playing against, plus it is a design constraint. Not letting it play the best starting effect in the game is reasonable.

It is contentious because in reality, TRM is already struggling in this current meta (in part because ISB is very good against it and also because every Dark deck comes with a concrete game plan/hate cards for TRM; also because Legend and No Idea are is better) and this will probably knock it out (which some would argue is fine since TRM has been dominant for so long, even if it isn't great now, better to keep it down since it is a cyclical deck that comes and goes in the meta).

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

TacoBill wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 9:52 pm
To me, this reads as an attack on a particular perceived design strategy (valid point) and not an individual himself (which would not be a valid point).
Thanks, this is what I was going for. I edited the post to remove the name.

It just feels very much like a forced push in one direction.

I really hope people can be critical of the changes without the usual "they're volunteers and do a great job and we can't say anything negative at all!" that some people jump on.

Let's all acknowledge that everyone tries their best, wants what's best for the game, and we are appreciative of their hard work.

We still might disagree with that work, and sometimes word it poorly, or tone comes off wrong cause it's the internet. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the individuals, we may just disagree with their decisions.

Like neutering TRM and NI (two of the only 3 LS) but barely touching ISB (the one DS).

So now the meta is ISB and Legend.

This doesn't feel like a step forward to me.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by seitaer »

How often do have we had event streaming and the whole tournament was just TRM vs whatever the top dark deck at the time was.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Wokling »

I like that they are shaking things up. Definitely like the NI changes. Worried about the lack of changes for Legend and ISB though.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

seitaer wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 10:26 pm
How often do have we had event streaming and the whole tournament was just TRM vs whatever the top dark deck at the time was.
Felt like way more ISB v NI recently, no?

In any case, I'd rather get new good decks than totally neuter ones to unplayable (see: previous map erratas, rops, etc.).

It's hard to get it perfect, so continual tweaking is fine (say an errata goes too far, then give it a small helper next set.. like NI can now get new characters again), but total neutering is overkill and bad.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Karrdeshark »

Nice job on lots of those!

A few questions, while we're updating the Moff, can we also make him ability 3? No way he's more able than Tarkin, IMO.

Also, ISB is basically Map + Imperial Enforcement at this point. We errata'd Map. Just hitting the Moff's trooper pull doesn't stop the cheap deploy, Strategic Reserves with Garrison + Patrol, tons of spies, auto-activation, all backed by 30 guys and Domination. Its space package is technically slightly harder to find, but also way harder to kill with recurring deploy 2/ forfeit 7 pilots.

Basically, the changes to NI seems good. I don't love the Wokling change, but I can work with it. But ISB doesn't seem to have been brought down nearly enough.
Last edited by Karrdeshark on September 25th, 2020, 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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