9/24 CBT Update Discussion

SWCCG game play discussion.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Jedicon »

Karrdeshark wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 12:19 am
While we're updating the Moff, can we also make him ability 3? No way he's more able than Tarkin, IMO.

Also, ISB is basically Map + Imperial Enforcement at this point. We errata'd Map. Just hitting the Moff's trooper pull doesn't stop the cheap deploy, Strategic Reserves with Garrison + Patrol, tons of spies, auto-activation, all backed by 30 guys and Domination. Its space package is technically slightly harder to find, but also way harder to kill with recurring deploy 2/ forfeit 7 pilots.
Not for sure, but think that Ability 3 makes Code Clearance problematic.



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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Baron Soontir Fel »

Couldn't be much more happier with these changes. Thanks a lot!! :)

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by chriskelly »

Wokling errata was because every event, a non-insignificant number people voice displeasure about trm. We were trying to make people happy. We will reconsider this at once!

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by rhendon »

TacoBill wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 9:52 pm


To me, this reads as an attack on CK's perceived design strategy (valid point) and not CK himself (which would not be a valid point).
Disagree. Because of the way things work. This isn't all because of CK. This is D&D as a team doing things. CK doesn't do things as an authoritative figure. He works with his team on D&D and within the team of advocates. There is no CK design strategy. There is just a design strategy. To add CK into it personally reflects as an attack against him.

I say that with knowledge of how the PC works behind the scenes, not necessarily D&D and how the advocates work. I've been in a few teams, including the tournament committee. I left the TC because I was annoyed with how involved other non-tournament advocates were involved in all decisions. I also saw first hand how much the teams get a say in things and how it is a team effort not just the advocate's effort. I've worked with previous marketing advocates in their teams and saw it there too.

Now what I might not realize is that everyone doesn't see this. I assume with how easy it was for me to just get thrown into teams, topics, forums, channels, whatever that other people were heavily involved. It is weird for prominent members of our community to not be involved behind the scenes in some way. So maybe Joe doesn't see that and I jumped on him for it. Maybe Joe is living off the way the PC used to run. But I can say 100% confidently that CK doesn't force the erratas, designs or anything else. He doesn't dictate what comes out. It is a team effort by a lot of people.
arebelspy wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 10:07 pm

Thanks, this is what I was going for. I edited the post to remove the name.

It just feels very much like a forced push in one direction.

I really hope people can be critical of the changes without the usual "they're volunteers and do a great job and we can't say anything negative at all!" that some people jump on.

Let's all acknowledge that everyone tries their best, wants what's best for the game, and we are appreciative of their hard work.

We still might disagree with that work, and sometimes word it poorly, or tone comes off wrong cause it's the internet. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the individuals, we may just disagree with their decisions.

Like neutering TRM and NI (two of the only 3 LS) but barely touching ISB (the one DS).

So now the meta is ISB and Legend.

This doesn't feel like a step forward to me.
Thank you for removing the name. I hope the part above your quote will show more of what I was going for. I wasn't trying to go after you (like in the past), I was just pointing it out to not have the thread devolve into where it seems to go on the forums. That kind of thing has driven players from the forums and we should stop it.

You can be critical of the changes. You can dislike them. You can show data and prove them to be an utter failure. Just don't need to make it personal. This was a team effort by D&D to come up with changes. HITCO isn't CK's pet deck. In fact, I'm pretty sure Justin Desai helped design it.

Also, if you aren't apart of anything behind the scenes, then it seems weird to jump down this rabbit hole without seeing what is coming from Set 13. I'm just as blind as you are to what is going on there but my immediate reaction to the changes is woah this changes the meta and decks like ISB/Court get off kind of light but hey let's see what set 13 brings because it will probably change all that again. Its hard to be so critical when I don't know all the data.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Corran »

I don’t think I’ve chimes in here. These errata seem to basically be what many people were asking for. I wasn’t expecting No Idea to be hit harder than other decks, but at this point I’d rather attack problem decks with a scalpel than just nerf them. This probably wouldn’t work with No idea because of how high everyone’s defense values get in that deck.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Hunter »

arebelspy wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:39 pm
I'd assume most people who say rtic is NPE would also say them saving one for houjix and then having BC take it is NPE. And it's really the combo of them together, so him cancelling it solves that.
Houjix doesn't cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not make it cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not do ANYthing that should be considered NPE. This combination can only become NPE after adding in the card that is the actual problem, which you've bizarrely left unnamed.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Hunter »

spideyguy0 wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:49 pm
I dislike when a classic decktype is weakened partially in order to push virtual objectives. That was a big part of what accelerated us towards the reset.
How do you figure that?

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by quickdraw3457 »

Hunter wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 9:14 am
arebelspy wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:39 pm
I'd assume most people who say rtic is NPE would also say them saving one for houjix and then having BC take it is NPE. And it's really the combo of them together, so him cancelling it solves that.
Houjix doesn't cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not make it cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not do ANYthing that should be considered NPE. This combination can only become NPE after adding in the card that is the actual problem, which you've bizarrely left unnamed.
One of only a handful of topics I wholeheartedly agree with Hunter on!
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by rhendon »

quickdraw3457 wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 9:15 am
Hunter wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 9:14 am
arebelspy wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:39 pm
I'd assume most people who say rtic is NPE would also say them saving one for houjix and then having BC take it is NPE. And it's really the combo of them together, so him cancelling it solves that.
Houjix doesn't cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not make it cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not do ANYthing that should be considered NPE. This combination can only become NPE after adding in the card that is the actual problem, which you've bizarrely left unnamed.
One of only a handful of topics I wholeheartedly agree with Hunter on!
I've long thought FS/DTF was fine in a vacuum. It makes interrupts that were free have a cost, which isn't a bad thing.

Force denial or stealing was fine in a vacuum. It makes resource management a skill for deckbuilding and playing.

Combining the 2 has always been the problem. I think in a remake of the game, DTF/FS wouldn't get made and interrupts would have more costs applied to them rather than always being free.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Corran »

Winning because my opponent didn’t play around First Strike is one of my favorite things. Losing because my opponent combos rtic with broken concentration and First Strike combo is NPE. Even if I’d rather throw in 2 extra good characters than rtic and broken concentration if I wanted to win games.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

Hunter wrote:
arebelspy wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:39 pm
I'd assume most people who say rtic is NPE would also say them saving one for houjix and then having BC take it is NPE. And it's really the combo of them together, so him cancelling it solves that.
Houjix doesn't cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not make it cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not do ANYthing that should be considered NPE. This combination can only become NPE after adding in the card that is the actual problem, which you've bizarrely left unnamed.
Good point. It is a 3 card combo.

And making one of the cards slightly weaker to leave the combo working doesn't fix the problem, it just makes the character itself worse so it won't see play without that combo.

Rtic and broken and first strike only stealing 3 instead of 4? Doesn't change the NPE.

Rtic cancelling broken, so they can't combo together? Does.

(And though it doesn't change the broken con/FS combo, that's a decipher problem, and we do have a cancel broken counter, and other stuff could be done to that, but just addressing the virtual part of the combo, you could just literally not make them work together.)

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Madmanwithabox »

chriskelly wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 8:01 am
Wokling errata was because every event, a non-insignificant number people voice displeasure about trm. We were trying to make people happy. We will reconsider this at once!
Displeasure with TRM doesn't necessarily mean Wokling is at fault. The issue (in my opinion, as I've mentioned elsewhere) is the overly broad character base it can pull from, rather than the activation (and other benefits Wokling provides). Hitting Wokling (when the deck already has a chance to randomly miss pullers) just means a bad starting hand is even harder to come back from.
TRM is a good deck choice for more than just that reason - it's reactive, doesn't need to do specific things to flip an objective, and lowers decision fatigue (if you're playing a dark deck that requires a lot of actions and choices, having an autopilot light deck provides a welcome break). People may play it for the same reason as HD in match play, it is solid, easy to play and tends to keep differential low if it loses.
I'd prefer to see the overall character base addressed (perhaps with some restrictions on Wokling for e1/e7 characters), rather than the activation.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Jedicon »

Think the Wokling errata is fine. Decks that don't put BGs on the table shouldn't be getting additional activation boosts.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by MrPurple »

Thanks for doing all this! Looking forward to seeing the next set.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by rhendon »

MrPurple wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 11:58 am
Thanks for doing all this! Looking forward to seeing the next set.
He's back!

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by allstarz97 »

So many different places to monitor feedback but a few quick things:

These things can change based upon feedback. For instance wokling, or a change to legend. Feedback is being monitored... as you can see the majority of this is feedback and data based.

Gideon was holding the darksaber.. so ability 4

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by TacoBill »

I look forward to the ability-4 Sabine Wren errata.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by alex-1 »

Jedicon wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 11:53 am
Think the Wokling errata is fine. Decks that don't put BGs on the table shouldn't be getting additional activation boosts.
True. TRM is just a pain to play against

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by allstarz97 »

TacoBill wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 12:55 pm
I look forward to the ability-4 Sabine Wren errata.
id support it... haha that a good point.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Dr. Hayus »

Madmanwithabox wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 11:14 am
chriskelly wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 8:01 am
Wokling errata was because every event, a non-insignificant number people voice displeasure about trm. We were trying to make people happy. We will reconsider this at once!
Displeasure with TRM doesn't necessarily mean Wokling is at fault. The issue (in my opinion, as I've mentioned elsewhere) is the overly broad character base it can pull from, rather than the activation (and other benefits Wokling provides). Hitting Wokling (when the deck already has a chance to randomly miss pullers) just means a bad starting hand is even harder to come back from.
TRM is a good deck choice for more than just that reason - it's reactive, doesn't need to do specific things to flip an objective, and lowers decision fatigue (if you're playing a dark deck that requires a lot of actions and choices, having an autopilot light deck provides a welcome break). People may play it for the same reason as HD in match play, it is solid, easy to play and tends to keep differential low if it loses.
I'd prefer to see the overall character base addressed (perhaps with some restrictions on Wokling for e1/e7 characters), rather than the activation.
I was having a side conversation here that parallels your character base comments. So how is HITCO different then (in the piling up of different best versions of characters)? Is the character-base as much of a problem in HITCO as it is in TRM? What makes them different? The going first part aside (which HITCO doesn't and TRM does), and the slight character restriction may limit that, but TRM didn’t often play EP1 Jedi too often IIRC (unless that was the build, which some were, but didn't seem to be dominant).

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