9/24 CBT Update Discussion

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Jnapolit31 »

Dr. Hayus wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 1:28 pm
Madmanwithabox wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 11:14 am
chriskelly wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 8:01 am
Wokling errata was because every event, a non-insignificant number people voice displeasure about trm. We were trying to make people happy. We will reconsider this at once!
Displeasure with TRM doesn't necessarily mean Wokling is at fault. The issue (in my opinion, as I've mentioned elsewhere) is the overly broad character base it can pull from, rather than the activation (and other benefits Wokling provides). Hitting Wokling (when the deck already has a chance to randomly miss pullers) just means a bad starting hand is even harder to come back from.
TRM is a good deck choice for more than just that reason - it's reactive, doesn't need to do specific things to flip an objective, and lowers decision fatigue (if you're playing a dark deck that requires a lot of actions and choices, having an autopilot light deck provides a welcome break). People may play it for the same reason as HD in match play, it is solid, easy to play and tends to keep differential low if it loses.
I'd prefer to see the overall character base addressed (perhaps with some restrictions on Wokling for e1/e7 characters), rather than the activation.
I was having a side conversation here that parallels your character base comments. So how is HITCO different then (in the piling up of different best versions of characters)? Is the character-base as much of a problem in HITCO as it is in TRM? What makes them different? The going first part aside (which HITCO doesn't and TRM does), and the slight character restriction may limit that, but TRM didn’t often play EP1 Jedi too often IIRC (unless that was the build, which some were, but didn't seem to be dominant).
No Anakin and EPP Qui in HITCO is significant. Starting a BG on table is significant.


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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by fungineer »

Shadow 13 wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 9:35 pm
AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 9:15 pm
Whatever happens with which cards getting errata, please number the "E" so one can tell just by looking at the corner of the card if it is the first, second, etc. errata, to make it easier to know if one is up to date.
agreed
I asked for this years ago. It would be nice
Though now with second or more errata, would we need the previous slips revised to match?
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by aermet69 »

I think I'm quite happy with all the changes. Would have preferred a Wokling blank, but this is okay.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by CoffeePass »

Thinking on it more, I agree with "Woklng errata is bad." Here's my logic and please note that this is *entirely* from the perspective of the current pre-errata meta, which I feel like I have played a lot:

TRM is kind of mediocre in the current meta -- it really struggles with ISB since it basically needs to cover two battleground sites (one of which they can move away from for free), a system, and also defend its own non-battlegrounds, all while doing little damage against a deck with 30 characters who keep getting retrieved. Its greatest strength is dropping R2 on Coruscant, but everyone is running Strategic Reserves (which, of course, TRM should adapt and play Alter).

Additionally, TRM has been top dog for so long and people alwyays tweak their decks for it. Think about the "gimmicky" Bespin CRv decks that don't give TRM any outs to drain. Or adding None Shall Passes to Court or something like Laser Cannon Batteries to AOBS to shoot Tantive -- unlike Legend or No Idea, there are legit hate cards for TRM's strategy and every competitive Dark deck starts with the question of "OK, how do I beat TRM?"

Here's where things got a bit wonky recently: R2-D2. (I know, I am sorry, we've talked about this a million times before, but please keep reading even if you're rolling your eyes.) R2 gave TRM a huge boost in a couple of matchups where it was generally 50/50 (or at least skill intensive), specifically Hunt Down and AOBS. Unfortunately, Hunt Down and AOBS were both kind of fading out of the meta, anyways, since they both struggle vs. some combination of No Idea and Legend. (Now an argument can be made R2 was good for the meta since it helps TRM vs. ISB, but as mentioned above, I don't think it's enough anyways to help TRM vs. ISB.)

What if just R2 is errated (so TRM can't immediately Seeking him back next turn) but Wokling is not errated (and No Idea is nerfed)? Perhaps TRM will still be played some. In that case, Hunt Down and AOBS naturally might come back up a bit more, in which case we have a Dark meta with ISB (good against everything), Court (good against non-TRM decks but kept in check by TRM), and AOBS/HD (good against TRM but bad against Legend). TRM would serve an OK spot in this meta since it checks Court some.

Assuming TRM is dead without Wokling (perhaps an exaggeration, but I think probable), the meta before Set 13 is really going to congeal around Legend for Light and ISB for Dark since these are two decks without natural tough matchups; Court will be very powerful (and isn't *terrible* vs. Legend, so it will also lack a bad matchup) and really keeping in check most of Light Side's Tier 2 (Diplo, QMC, OA, etc...). If TRM was still in the meta as a second viable Light Side deck, it would (a) open up AOBS and HD some (who can play a bit more with No Idea gone, but probably don't want to face Legend all day) and (b) keep Court down (which then opens up some of Light Side's Tier 2). I think ISB and Legend would still be clear Tier 1 decks, but TRM being around opens up some other decks up on both sides in the meta game.

Postscript 1: Yes, I know there are other Dark decks, specifically CCT, Watto, and IE. CCT I kind of lump in generally as "Scum" and think along with Court, but perhaps should be separated out some (though I don't think people will be happy if the meta is diversified as "ISB and Scum decks" instead of "ISB and Court"). Watto and IE weren't putting up great results before or after No Idea's rise or R2 (where as AOBS and Hunt Down seem like they could be a player again without those around, but not against a Legend heavy field), so I don't think things change too much for them regardless -- but I could be wrong.

Postscript 2: It's interesting this would all be irrelevant if Wokling had been errated a year ago in the tweak set -- I don't think anyone would have batted an eyelash at that time having TRM tweaked down (e.g. losing Wokling and LMFBM at the same time). I don't know if this is a good thing or bad thing.

Postscript 3: I know a new set is coming out by December -- I am just thinking about how things stand now (since it takes time for a new set to adjust the meta and, importantly, OCS playoffs for the next six weeks).

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by AdmiralMotti89 »

fungineer wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 2:01 pm
Shadow 13 wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 9:35 pm
AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 9:15 pm
Whatever happens with which cards getting errata, please number the "E" so one can tell just by looking at the corner of the card if it is the first, second, etc. errata, to make it easier to know if one is up to date.
agreed
I asked for this years ago. It would be nice
Though now with second or more errata, would we need the previous slips revised to match?
There's a bit of a wrinkle because for the first order blaster rifle, for example, there exist slips right now that have the current text that just say "E" when it could say what, "E3"? So you would have E3 and E designations both being the current legal text, which is fine overall given the relative benefits of down the road having an easier way to determine if one's card is updated. I mean AFAIK right now that card has 3 different slips, all of which have an "E" on them.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Berm »

I dislike the Wokling (v) change because it doesn’t address what I thought was the major issue: Wokling (v) is basically auto-start in almost every LS deck because it’s too good.

All the change does is prevent it from being played in TRM, and does nothing to change the core issue. I’d have rather seen the Wokling text changed so it was more of a decision to include it as a starting slot across the board, but not change it so much as to preclude it from being used by a variety of decks.

I see Wokling (v) as needing change just like Rescue in the Clouds (v) needs changed. When a card is so good as to go in every single light side deck, it should be changed so deck building doesn’t devolve.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by arebelspy »

To highlight/focus on a big point from CoffeePass's post:
Court keeps down tier 2 LS like QMC, Diplo, OA, etc.

TRM keeps it in check.

Removing TRM hurts the Tier 2 LS.

Anyone see that game of Kessling Court vs MHT's QMC? Without TRM in the meta, that becomes much more common, making other LS even less played, funny enough.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Jedicon »

TRM out of the meta enables D&D to build LS mains without worrying about yet another splashable character for TRM. Pretty much all of the other Tier 1 LS decks have character restrictions that make this a bit easier.

Also, I think that it is premature to say "Court stomps all these decks". We expect LS aliens decks (WYS, maybe QMC?) to get substantial help in Set 13 based off of comments on Holotheatre from D&D. We don't know that Court will continue to run over these decks.

Additionally, I expect that our players are smart enough to adjust. If Court becomes more popular, expect HITCO farm or other variants to rise in popularity to meet it.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by aermet69 »

arebelspy wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 10:45 am
To highlight/focus on a big point from CoffeePass's post:
Court keeps down tier 2 LS like QMC, Diplo, OA, etc.

TRM keeps it in check.

Removing TRM hurts the Tier 2 LS.

Anyone see that game of Kessling Court vs MHT's QMC? Without TRM in the meta, that becomes much more common, making other LS even less played, funny enough.
This makes no sense. Removing TRM does nothing to worsen or better the QMC vs Court matchup. It may be that TRM causes less Court to be played, but if you play QMC that doesn't really matter when you do meet Court. There's been a bunch of Court, even while TRM has been okay - so it's not like TRM completely banishes Court.
If you want to see more QMC, then either tone down Court or help QMC stand a chance at Bespin.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Jedicon »

aermet69 wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 11:39 am
arebelspy wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 10:45 am
To highlight/focus on a big point from CoffeePass's post:
Court keeps down tier 2 LS like QMC, Diplo, OA, etc.

TRM keeps it in check.

Removing TRM hurts the Tier 2 LS.

Anyone see that game of Kessling Court vs MHT's QMC? Without TRM in the meta, that becomes much more common, making other LS even less played, funny enough.
This makes no sense. Removing TRM does nothing to worsen or better the QMC vs Court matchup. It may be that TRM causes less Court to be played, but if you play QMC that doesn't really matter when you do meet Court. There's been a bunch of Court, even while TRM has been okay - so it's not like TRM completely banishes Court.
If you want to see more QMC, then either tone down Court or help QMC stand a chance at Bespin.
I think his point was more that people are hesitant to throw down Court in competitive format with TRM still being popular. With TRM getting bumped down a notch, Court may become the most popular deck. I think that title will still belong to ISB, but that remains to be seen. More Court in the meta might mean less T2 LS decks in the meta, but there's specific counters they can use to make the matchup a bit better if they anticipate it (A Gift, Guts, etc.)

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by arebelspy »


aermet69 wrote:
arebelspy wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 10:45 am
To highlight/focus on a big point from CoffeePass's post:
Court keeps down tier 2 LS like QMC, Diplo, OA, etc.

TRM keeps it in check.

Removing TRM hurts the Tier 2 LS.

Anyone see that game of Kessling Court vs MHT's QMC? Without TRM in the meta, that becomes much more common, making other LS even less played, funny enough.
This makes no sense. Removing TRM does nothing to worsen or better the QMC vs Court matchup. It may be that TRM causes less Court to be played
Exactly!

If court has nothing keeping it in check, you can't ever risk playing qmc.

If court has a natural predator in trm, other decks that court keeps down become more viable.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by aermet69 »

Okay. I disagree with the premise.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by allstarz97 »

I’m Not sure I’m sold either. Court is enough of the pie that Qmc, Oa, whatever decks are bad to court still have not feel like good choices in the meta.. if the ds meta went to like an even higher % of court I’d almost think that those decks fair better as they could devote more court hate and lower the consequence of running blank cards.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by CoffeePass »

allstarz97 wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 1:18 pm
I’m Not sure I’m sold either. Court is enough of the pie that Qmc, Oa, whatever decks are bad to court still have not feel like good choices in the meta.. if the ds meta went to like an even higher % of court I’d almost think that those decks fair better as they could devote more court hate and lower the consequence of running blank cards.
That's a reasonable point, though I think we are at that point in the current meta so it'll be interesting to see if those decks do that (e.g. if you'll see a really anti-ISB and Court QMC or Diplo come up).

I still think R2 turning the tables on AOBS and HD in the TRM matchup was problematic and that TRM really wasn't doing any harm in this meta without R2 recurring.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Blarg »

CoffeePass wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 6:11 pm
I still think R2 turning the tables on AOBS and HD in the TRM matchup was problematic and that TRM really wasn't doing any harm in this meta without R2 recurring.
x2
allstarz97 wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 1:18 pm
I’m Not sure I’m sold either. Court is enough of the pie that Qmc, Oa, whatever decks are bad to court still have not feel like good choices in the meta.. if the ds meta went to like an even higher % of court I’d almost think that those decks fair better as they could devote more court hate and lower the consequence of running blank cards.
My QMC had quite a bit of Court hate and still lost by 29. If Court is enough of the meta to warp your QMC even more, you probably just shouldn't be playing QMC.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by allstarz97 »

Blarg wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 6:56 pm
CoffeePass wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 6:11 pm
I still think R2 turning the tables on AOBS and HD in the TRM matchup was problematic and that TRM really wasn't doing any harm in this meta without R2 recurring.
x2
allstarz97 wrote:
September 26th, 2020, 1:18 pm
I’m Not sure I’m sold either. Court is enough of the pie that Qmc, Oa, whatever decks are bad to court still have not feel like good choices in the meta.. if the ds meta went to like an even higher % of court I’d almost think that those decks fair better as they could devote more court hate and lower the consequence of running blank cards.
My QMC had quite a bit of Court hate and still lost by 29. If Court is enough of the meta to warp your QMC even more, you probably just shouldn't be playing QMC.
Didn’t you say everything went bad for you with weird mixes of what was in force pile and reserve? Sometimes it’s not about the cards in the deck but the in game stuff too..

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Saladas »

how did trm do against hd in the decipher era before wokling? i'm guessing hd was advantaged since ls mains weren't broken back then as they are now.

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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Thekillerkiwi »

I am quite pleased with most of these changes. I like the Wokling change as I think it is time for TRM to take a step back even if other DS decks benefit from that.

The only issue I have is that ISB didn't get enough of a tweak. Whenever any DS deck is recurring and retrieving more than normal it creates problems IMO. This is what happened to ROPs as well. Having cheap deploy high forfeit guys with very useful gametext recurring often is problematic.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Thekillerkiwi »

Hunter wrote:
September 25th, 2020, 9:14 am
arebelspy wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:39 pm
I'd assume most people who say rtic is NPE would also say them saving one for houjix and then having BC take it is NPE. And it's really the combo of them together, so him cancelling it solves that.
Houjix doesn't cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not make it cost one. The combination of R'tic + Broken Concentration does not do ANYthing that should be considered NPE. This combination can only become NPE after adding in the card that is the actual problem, which you've bizarrely left unnamed.
QFT. IMO Hunter is spot on here. He swayed me to his argument a couple of years ago.

Taking or spending someones force is not NPE(annoying for sure) until you create a major penalty for not having any force left and making things that are normally free cost something. The card that creates the penalty is the problem and that is clearly First Strike.
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Re: 9/24 CBT Update Discussion

Post by Saladas »

arebelspy wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:19 pm
TacoBill wrote:
September 24th, 2020, 7:04 pm
- R2-D2 (v): will no longer recur to Used Pile -- :yes:
- R'tic H'weei: will only get to steal Force during LS player's turn -- :(
- Make Ten Men Feel Like A Hundred: will not \/ Saw (or make him a Resistance Agent) -- :yes:
- Saw Guerra: will not cancel any [Immune to Sense] Interrupt -- :yes:
- Stardust: the ping will be 1 -- :yes: :yes: :yes:
- No Idea: the +2 deploy modifier will be stricken on the 0 side and the 7 side POOP a Rebel to cancel a destiny text will instead be POOP a rebel to stop a weapon from targeting a spy :yes:
- Kir Kanos (V): will have further restrictions on when he can cancel an Interrupt -- :(
- Moff Gideon: his stormtrooper \/ will be -2 and only at his site -- :yes:
I like most of the changes.

I don't think r'tic was bad enough to warrant changing (was essentially never in event winning decks), and now I don't think he'll see play.

I don't think Kir needs a change. By contrast Saw I'm only fine removing that cause he did too much. Remove something from him. That one? Sure. Kir doesn't do too much (essentially two things--upload myn, sometimes if myn is in rd, and cancel interrupt).

Gideon is still super good.

And ISB needs way more done to it to make it worse. This is not nearly enough. And agree Taco that legend is ridic. It could use a few minor tweaks (Like wish luke didn't pull force projection.. and maybe the flip side tweaked).

The best change is stardust ping meaning EVERY ds no longer has to start with 1x decree (and often burn a starting slot on it). Love that.
the cancel redraw should cost a force, similar to whap. that would have a large effect on ls decision making.

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