Ask the TD/Judge

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rhendon
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Ask the TD/Judge

Post by rhendon »

Hey all,

This week on Holotheatre, Justin Miyashiro and I will be doing a segment on tournament rules and procedures. With our community growing and online events taking off, we are seeing an influx of new players. We will try and hit on a lot of those topics for new players that are unsure of what to expect for attending a live event or an online event.

If there are any questions that you have personally, or would like to see answered, please post them here. We will do our best to answer them in the show. If we can't, they will be passed on to the tournament committee for answering or the tournament advocate himself.


Hunter wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 5:19 am
I agree with rhendon that Joe is Scum.

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Corran »

Asking for a friend: What is the policy on a player streaming their own game during the event?
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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by SmallDarkLines »

One of the things that came up on Slack was around active judging - and when it is/isn’t possible to point out... dodgy behaviour (there’s a little ambiguity around observers advising judges of issues).

A segment about general tournament stuff would be useful too: getting there early enough, registration, deck list submission (and where/how to do so), having a decent nights sleep beforehand, how to recognise people (for new attendees who don’t know the community by sight), etc.
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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by fungineer »

Madmanwithabox wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 11:41 am

A segment about general tournament stuff would be useful too: getting there early enough, registration, deck list submission (and where/how to do so), having a decent nights sleep beforehand, how to recognise people (for new attendees who don’t know the community by sight), etc.
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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by rhendon »

Madmanwithabox wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 11:41 am
One of the things that came up on Slack was around active judging - and when it is/isn’t possible to point out... dodgy behaviour (there’s a little ambiguity around observers advising judges of issues).

A segment about general tournament stuff would be useful too: getting there early enough, registration, deck list submission (and where/how to do so), having a decent nights sleep beforehand, how to recognise people (for new attendees who don’t know the community by sight), etc.
The only thing I wanted to put here is the response to the top part from slack. The rest will be talked about on the show. I'm not 100% sure we will touch base on the slack part though and wanted this here if nothing else.
2.2.2. Active Judging – If an event has the Tournament Committee’s approval, active judging may be
implemented for Swiss and/or Match Play rounds of the tournament. The Tournament Director and
their designated judge(s) are allowed to correct illegal board states and any other rules infractions ingame, as observed. Judges will be held to the highest expectations of fairness to observe all games at
regular intervals and catch any infractions observed. Further details should be obtained from the
Tournament Committee if you wish to run a tournament with active judging.
That is from the current tournament guide. Anyone who knows me or worked with me at events, knows I'm a big fan of active judging and have been pushing for it in our game since almost 2010. I believe I snuck in the first final day cut to be active judged (MPC with Desai, Chu, Tom Kelly and Ryan Jellison). It had been talked about on forums but since I got put into defacto running that MPC after I was knocked out, I jumped the gun to get actual data for people to talk about.

History of SWCCG rules all starts with Decipher. If you didn't play during their reign, then you wouldn't know that they had almost an opposite rule with MTG. If MTG was doing it, you could be sure that Decipher was going to do the opposite. MTG bans cards, Decipher will never ban a card. MTG has active judging, Decipher goes against it. Also, Decipher/PC used to have players who finished their games leave the game area. So there weren't really spectators like at other events. That is the basis for the active judging being left out for years. Decipher didn't do it.

After the PC, from what I've seen and this isn't to throw anyone under the bus, or place blame, but there are a lot of players that haven't played anything but SWCCG on a competitive level. So they don't understand all the risks vs rewards that a lot of MTG's systems. So when you say something like active judging, they are looking at it with skepticism. Things like well (again just an example no deeper context to this) Justin Desai has a group of friends that would watch his games and help correct things and it would be an unfair advantage. Some stick with this is what has always been done and it works.

They don't have the mindset like I do and some others that have played those other games or come from them. It was engrained in the Decipher mindset to allow people to get away with stuff if they could rather than focus on the game rules and making the sure the game state was correct all the time. When I play a game, the game state being correct is highly important to me. It ensures fair play for me and my opponent. I will constantly point out missed triggers that are mandatory, or required rules for cards when applicable. Assuming I remember them, and I don't always do. Games can get complex and stuff forgotten. But I try. Decipher's rule set helped enable the opposite mindset. The one to try and get them to forget their cards to gain an advantage. After all, it is their responsibility to remember their cards. That was the mindset Decipher helped foster. That was one the PC continued to foster. You can see it all over from older veterans.

To answer the specific question rather than give the history of it..

Since the event I ran with it as a test, it is used more often on the final day of play. To make sure the top cut is played with proper game states. It should be announced ahead of time if active judging is allowed or not. It should be announced when it is allowed or not as well. Smaller events, locals, states, whatever are usually for that community and each one is different. At the majors, it is usually not allowed on day 1s. If you see something though, find the head judge/TD and tell them. They will know whether they can step in or not.

Regardless of the game I've played in or run at a high competitive event, a spectator should NEVER try to correct a game state on their own when seeing an error. MTG used to allow, not sure if they still do, a spectator to stop a game and call a judge. But they were never allowed to actively judge it or intervene in the match other than to call a judge.
Hunter wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 5:19 am
I agree with rhendon that Joe is Scum.

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by imrahil327 »

Corran wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 11:03 am
Asking for a friend: What is the policy on a player streaming their own game during the event?
Is this specifically about Worlds?
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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Corran »

imrahil327 wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 2:38 pm
Corran wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 11:03 am
Asking for a friend: What is the policy on a player streaming their own game during the event?
Is this specifically about Worlds?
I had someone(I forget who) ask me about it specifically about Worlds, but I think it's come up during other events as well.
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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by rhendon »

imrahil327 wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 2:38 pm
Corran wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 11:03 am
Asking for a friend: What is the policy on a player streaming their own game during the event?
Is this specifically about Worlds?
I know I've thought about it for events I was playing in. I don't pretend to have a chance to win things so I wouldn't mind live streaming my games.
Hunter wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 5:19 am
I agree with rhendon that Joe is Scum.

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Corran »

rhendon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 3:23 pm
imrahil327 wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 2:38 pm
Corran wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 11:03 am
Asking for a friend: What is the policy on a player streaming their own game during the event?
Is this specifically about Worlds?
I know I've thought about it for events I was playing in. I don't pretend to have a chance to win things so I wouldn't mind live streaming my games.
Yeah, I mean a lot of people stream OCS games, and I think Sperling streamed his TMW game once he was out of contention. I'm also not concerned with people seeing my cards or whatever, but would just be concerned that someone would suggest a line of play in the chat and make it look like I was cheetoring. It would probably be good to have a rule one way or the other.
Check out Bad Deck Breakdowns, a Star Wars CCG Deckbuilding podcast, on the podcatcher of your choice or https://www.kendallcast.ninja
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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Jedicon »

Along the lines of streaming, we've had 2 separate instances of players observing streams of their games this year (TMW, MPC). In this new era of online events, should this be a set penalty?

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Death Star »

rhendon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 2:32 pm
Also, Decipher/PC used to have players who finished their games leave the game area.
That is still the rule.
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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Corran »

Jedicon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 4:09 pm
Along the lines of streaming, we've had 2 separate instances of players observing streams of their games this year (TMW, MPC). In this new era of online events, should this be a set penalty?
How do other games handle this? I kind of feel like it should just be allowed, since it would be very difficult to enforce, but also feel like it would make it correct to always watch your streamed games(especially if the commentators are smarter than you), which would hurt the integrity of the game.
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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Jedicon »

Corran wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 4:39 pm
Jedicon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 4:09 pm
Along the lines of streaming, we've had 2 separate instances of players observing streams of their games this year (TMW, MPC). In this new era of online events, should this be a set penalty?
How do other games handle this? I kind of feel like it should just be allowed, since it would be very difficult to enforce, but also feel like it would make it correct to always watch your streamed games(especially if the commentators are smarter than you), which would hurt the integrity of the game.
I think it would substantially effect the streamers as well, as we commonly hear things like "he played this card in the previous round" or "when we tested, this was a card we were thinking about"

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by rhendon »

Death Star wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 4:22 pm
rhendon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 2:32 pm
Also, Decipher/PC used to have players who finished their games leave the game area.
That is still the rule.
Then we've redefined what the game area is. I have never been asked to leave the room. I rarely continue to sit at the tables but I usually will hang out in the room. From what I've heard, that was not the case in the Decipher days. That is what I was trying to reference more than anything though.
Hunter wrote:
April 8th, 2020, 5:19 am
I agree with rhendon that Joe is Scum.

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by DJJackson »

For other games like mtg, streamers are required to put a stream delay on if they are going to stream their match during a tournament, minimum is typically 2 minutes but in a game like swccg where the turns take longer, the delay should probably also increase. Online mtg tournaments have also moved not allowing draws or concessions unless its warranted to prevent players cheating to fix their standings. Just my two cents on the streaming subject.

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by DJJackson »

rhendon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 5:08 pm
Death Star wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 4:22 pm
rhendon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 2:32 pm
Also, Decipher/PC used to have players who finished their games leave the game area.
That is still the rule.
Then we've redefined what the game area is. I have never been asked to leave the room. I rarely continue to sit at the tables but I usually will hang out in the room. From what I've heard, that was not the case in the Decipher days. That is what I was trying to reference more than anything though.
I find it strange that you would be required to leave the room. I've competed at multiple Magic the gathering Grand prixs and you aren't required to leave the room. You can watch other competitors games as long as you keep a respectful distance and don't discuss the game play. Scouting out your opponents was part of the tournament scene but it's not like you can counterpick your deck against theirs since sideboarding wasn't allowed until the second game of the match.

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Corran »

DJJackson wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 5:13 pm
For other games like mtg, streamers are required to put a stream delay on if they are going to stream their match during a tournament, minimum is typically 2 minutes but in a game like swccg where the turns take longer, the delay should probably also increase. Online mtg tournaments have also moved not allowing draws or concessions unless its warranted to prevent players cheating to fix their standings. Just my two cents on the streaming subject.
Can we make this the rule? How long can the delay be set in OBS/Streamlabs?
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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Apollyon »

DJJackson wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 5:16 pm
I find it strange that you would be required to leave the room. I've competed at multiple Magic the gathering Grand prixs and you aren't required to leave the room. You can watch other competitors games as long as you keep a respectful distance and don't discuss the game play. Scouting out your opponents was part of the tournament scene but it's not like you can counterpick your deck against theirs since sideboarding wasn't allowed until the second game of the match.
You aren't allowed to interfere in a match at any Professional REL tournament in Magic. That's typically enforced via "no one except Tournament Officials and Official Press in the aisles" rules at Day 2 of a GP.

The full text:
"Any person physically present at a tournament and not in any other category above is a spectator. Spectators are responsible for remaining silent and passive during matches and other official tournament sections in which players are also required to be silent. If spectators believe they have observed a rules or policy violation, they are encouraged to alert a judge as soon as possible. At Regular or Competitive Rules Enforcement Level, spectators are permitted to ask the players to pause the match while they alert a judge. At Professional Rules Enforcement Level, spectators who are not members of the official coverage team must not interfere with the match directly.

Players may request that a spectator not observe their matches. Such requests must be made through a judge. Tournament officials may also instruct a spectator not observe a match or matches"

Source: https://media.wpn.wizards.com/attacheme ... n20_en.pdf

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by DJJackson »

Apollyon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 7:04 pm
DJJackson wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 5:16 pm
I find it strange that you would be required to leave the room. I've competed at multiple Magic the gathering Grand prixs and you aren't required to leave the room. You can watch other competitors games as long as you keep a respectful distance and don't discuss the game play. Scouting out your opponents was part of the tournament scene but it's not like you can counterpick your deck against theirs since sideboarding wasn't allowed until the second game of the match.
You aren't allowed to interfere in a match at any Professional REL tournament in Magic. That's typically enforced via "no one except Tournament Officials and Official Press in the aisles" rules at Day 2 of a GP.

The full text:
"Any person physically present at a tournament and not in any other category above is a spectator. Spectators are responsible for remaining silent and passive during matches and other official tournament sections in which players are also required to be silent. If spectators believe they have observed a rules or policy violation, they are encouraged to alert a judge as soon as possible. At Regular or Competitive Rules Enforcement Level, spectators are permitted to ask the players to pause the match while they alert a judge. At Professional Rules Enforcement Level, spectators who are not members of the official coverage team must not interfere with the match directly.

Players may request that a spectator not observe their matches. Such requests must be made through a judge. Tournament officials may also instruct a spectator not observe a match or matches"

Source: https://media.wpn.wizards.com/attacheme ... n20_en.pdf
I guess I've never been asked to leave, but I've only made Day 2 a couple times and I've always stood in the main aisle not in the aisle with seating.

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Re: Ask the TD/Judge

Post by Death Star »

rhendon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 5:08 pm
Death Star wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 4:22 pm
rhendon wrote:
November 17th, 2020, 2:32 pm
Also, Decipher/PC used to have players who finished their games leave the game area.
That is still the rule.
Then we've redefined what the game area is. I have never been asked to leave the room. I rarely continue to sit at the tables but I usually will hang out in the room. From what I've heard, that was not the case in the Decipher days. That is what I was trying to reference more than anything though.
4.6. Scouting: Scouting is defined as intentionally gathering details about a deck
that an opponent is playing outside of normal game play situations. It is
understood that due to playing space constraints, under most circumstances, it is
impossible to prevent some details from being unintentionally gathered over the
course of a tournament. It is the responsibility of the Tournament Director and
of each individual player to keep this to a minimum. When a game is complete,
a player should immediately leave the playing area with their opponent and
report their final score to the Tournament Director.


I am not saying that it is enforced. But watching other games after you finished your game is not allowed by the Tournament Guide.
"i know it won worlds,but it can't win anything in the local meta of michigan.we paly card for card what you ahve and still don't win"

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