Getting the Reset convo going

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The_Emp
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Getting the Reset convo going

Post by The_Emp »

Hey fellas,
I was surprised to see there hasn't been anything formally posted yet regarding the next upcoming reset. From what I have observed many players are mentioning it, and many top players have also mentioned the upcoming reset in various ways during chats/podcasts etc. but nothing has been posted yet. So my hope is that we get the ball rolling now on discussing all the important topics we need to cover over, so we can have a smooth as a transition as possible.
My observation is that some people don't want to mention anything since they may/would be judged by their peers so I'll bite the bullet for those that judge me that I dare bring up reset - after all I'm just a random dude but have been in the community at least on forums since 2009 or so.

I'm hoping to get a running list here of topics that will need to be discussed here so we can begin separate threads on them.

What comes to mind initially are:
- Time/date for the next reset

- Recurring time horizon for a reset (e.g. every 10-15 virtual sets or every 5-10 years etc.)

- How often to introduce new virtual sets, new tweak sets, etc.

- Committees- scope and size of committees that lead things, how many members, how they are selected, tenure etc.

- Fundamental principles and mechanics of the game - Deploy to Forfeit ratios, Power to Deploy Ratios, Activation Ratios, Immunity to Attrition, Out of Play, Retrieving into hand, Playing cards from lost pile, hell even Creatures!

- Activation - benchmarks for turn 1, 2, 3 and the outlier decks

- Location Pullers - How to deal with Wesa, Speak, and We Must Accelerate

- Maintenance Cards - How to balance them

- Balance - How do we propose to go about balancing the game upon a reset

- Philosophies - Ease of pulling locations, tutoring, weapons, trade-offs, balancing objectives (e.g. 2-3 Tier 1 or as many Tier 1s as possible?), Adding Destinies, Adding destinies to power or attrition only, limiting immunity to attrition, manipulating destinies, Destiny Redraws, Limiting Number of Destinies etc.

- Defensive Shields - Banning cards? Defensive Shields? What do we consider banning vs shielding, or what do we consider balancing rather than banning? Is Ice Storm truly bad for the game? Is Monnok/Grimtash balanced?

- What did we like/not like about this whole new virtual set series?

- Fears and Concerns - Perhaps this is the first to address and prevents us from wanting to even more towards a reset. What do we preserve? What do we try over? What do we nix entirely? Why are we for/against a reset?

As you can see there are so many things we want to ensure we dedicate a good amount of time to, so we can make as smooth as a transition as possible to both improve the game even more as well as retain and keep as many players as possible. We also hope to expand the player pool through a continually improving game.

Let's all be civil and remember we all love this game so much, and expect that everyone that is voicing their opinion cares about the game and each other, and that our opinions are in hopes that we want to improve the game, giving each other benefit of the doubt.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by arebelspy »

The_Emp wrote:My observation is that some people don't want to mention anything since they may/would be judged by their peers
This. There's always a lot of backlash by some vocal folks.

The last time it was brought up and seriously discussed a bit over a year ago (just in the theoretical "should this happen", not in concrete ideas like you have here) it did lead to the tweak set though (or at least accelerate it quite a bit), so that's good.

I think your outline is really solid.

It'd be neat if this became a thread that wasn't "should we have a reset" but just "what would one look like?" Good luck. :)

I think one of the thorniest issues is always maintenance and epp maul. Everyone has their own opinions on this (ditto banning decipher cards, even via shield).

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by shawnd1984 »

A minor observation that is tangentially related, it seems that Decipher (for the most part) did a good job at having some kind of cost to include characters in a deck, for example:

-Captain Han Solo-deployment restrictions
-LSJK-discounted at certain locations or otherwise super expensive
-Premiere Obi....he's good, but the cost of stuffing 5 copies of him in your desk is the higher probability to draw a 1!

Virtual characters for the most part are now costed at the expense of NOT having them in your deck. The most egregious example being Rey. Generally speaking, the disadvantage lies in NOT having her in a deck, since her gametext is so vital for putting one in an advantageous situation. Captain Hera Syndulla doesn't really have a "cost", as her deploy is modest given her text.

This is obviously not the case 100% of the time, but just some input from a rando dude who spends more time on the off topic forum:)
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by TacoBill »

Please rename this thread "Shawn's Totally Rational Pet Peeves About LS Characters."
arebelspy wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 9:46 am
I think one of the thorniest issues is always maintenance and epp maul. Everyone has their own opinions on this (ditto banning decipher cards, even via shield).
Perhaps some sort of team concerned with competitive balance could design a card (maybe an Immediate Effect?) that deals with EPP Maul?
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Corran »

For what it's worth, while a reset might eventually happen, it hasn't been announced, and from what I've seen, D&D is moving more in the direction of semi-annual major errata than a reset.

While discussing what a potential reset might look like has merit, I think it's important to note that this isn't something that's happening in the next few months or even beyond that.

That being said, if a reset were to occur, I would want a format in GEMP that just didn't reset the card pool and allowed all cards programmed in, possibly with the exception of something like ASM that was a completely different virtual card between Legacy and Open to avoid confusion.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by sac89837 »

Corran wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 10:16 am
For what it's worth, while a reset might eventually happen, it hasn't been announced, and from what I've seen, D&D is moving more in the direction of semi-annual major errata than a reset.
<- This.

So it's much more helpful if you don't like a particular card or mechanic and discuss that. We aren't going to reset back to World's 2000, but targeted feedback is always appreciated.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by arebelspy »

The problem with annual tweak at this point is we've crept far past ridiculous.

Have you seen the v14 preview stuff?

All of it will need tweaks in 6 months.

And okay you tweak hd v and hitco now. What's next? We're constantly having to tweak because the power curve is so high. New card comes out? Tweaked immediately.

How much have we seen that in the last few years? Shadows, rops, etc. And it seems to be accelerating (see: hitco and hd v).

You can't fix where we are with constant little tweaks, and it'll just be frustrating to try.

Resetting to a base power level and a v0 keeping the best stuff (with plans to rerelease stuff tweaked lower along the way--IMO we didn't reuse enough legacy stuff this era) is the way to get back to a sane game.

I was so for a tweak 15 months ago. And then it happened. And then v12 and v13 and now I just can't see it as enough. (And now v14 preview).

IMO, we should blow out the power creep for a year. Release ridiculously powerful stuff, like that v14 Jedi Rey. Just go nuts.

And then reset.

With planned tweaks every 18 months or whatever to keep the power at a sane level when it's still possible.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Wokling »

For months now, I haven't much felt like playing SW, and, honestly, it seems likely that I won't be playing or playing competitively until there is a reset.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by sac89837 »

arebelspy wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 11:53 am
Have you seen the v14 preview stuff?
Yes, if anyone has an issue with a card, please post in playtesting your concern.
arebelspy wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 11:53 am
All of it will need tweaks in 6 months.

And okay you tweak hd v and hitco now. What's next? We're constantly having to tweak because the power curve is so high. New card comes out? Tweaked immediately.

How much have we seen that in the last few years? Shadows, rops, etc. And it seems to be accelerating (see: hitco and hd v).
If you look at how much errata we have issued in the 6 1/2 years post reset it's not a lot for a card game of this size. Decipher would print bullets to kill old strategies. I prefer tweaking, plus injecting more thematic elements into a deck. For Hitco hopefully we can bring more RotJ elements into the deck.

arebelspy wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 11:53 am
You can't fix where we are with constant little tweaks, and it'll just be frustrating to try.
To me it would be more frustrating to play a year without anything new and have a bunch of my decks killed. And of course spend a year arguing over the base set.
arebelspy wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 11:53 am
Resetting to a base power level and a v0 keeping the best stuff (with plans to rerelease stuff tweaked lower along the way--IMO we didn't reuse enough legacy stuff this era) is the way to get back to a sane game.
I am curious to know what you missed from Legacy. But with the failure of the Limited Resources format, I just don't see this as viable. Personally I think a better use of someone's time would be to post in the competitive balance forum if they have any issues or are bored of a card frankly. We do read every thread and that feedback is valuable.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Berm »

The tweak set was a good step forward and I would hope they take another step forward like that to address how powerful these characters are.

All of the deploy cost creep (having cheap global deploy is too good on good characters).
All of the character destiny creep
All of the text/function creep. Virtual interrupts/effects now seem to do a minimum of 3 things when it seemed it used to be an unspoken rule that 3ish was the max.

A sweeping tweak that addresses a few main points would do a lot to address power creep issues.

Characters should follow the general rules on power/ability/deploy/forfeit/destiny and function. I.e. they can do 2 things if they follow those rules, they can do less if they don't follow those rules. Something like Anakin Skywalker (v), Solo (v), and Rey (v) all need to be changed because they are just too good. Removing even one of their violations in a sweeping tweak would free up room for another version of those characters to be designed.

We have interrupts for the maintenance cards - they would just see more play if people start playing them more and it would be okay. Aside from the maintenance cards, there are only a few Decipher cards that are bad and there can be good designed setbacks as shown with maintenance cards.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by seitaer »

I'm fully opposed to a reset at this point.

The biggest issue with set 13, was that the errata happened in the middle of playtesting. There were just too many moving parts.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by stevetotheizz0 »

What are people's enjoyment of the game now on a scale of 1 to 10?
Compared to before the tweak set, and during the early years of the reset?

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by SmallDarkLines »

stevetotheizz0 wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 2:02 pm
What are people's enjoyment of the game now on a scale of 1 to 10?
Compared to before the tweak set, and during the early years of the reset?
7.
It’d be higher if the power curve issues were addressed - not by a reset, but a general overhaul after set 14 that examined every v-card and increased or decreased the strength accordingly.
If there were a full reset, I’d want to see very clear details about the impact on player cards. I’d be pretty unhappy at losing them, though would be fine with getting the designs back to rework. A large chunk of my recent survey feedback was around how this could be done.
I’m overall happy with the themes and mechanics - there are just some misfires with playability.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Corran »

stevetotheizz0 wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 2:02 pm
What are people's enjoyment of the game now on a scale of 1 to 10?
Compared to before the tweak set, and during the early years of the reset?
7, down from 9 prior to set 13 and maybe 6.75 prior to the tweak set. Most of my issue is that I'm running into the same handful of casual players on GEMP, had a negative Worlds experience, and have been a little burnt out on the game in general. I'm hoping to get a little more excitement here in a week and a half for "Jawas in Love."
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by aermet69 »

Honestly, just recently, I've been more interested in playing - despite HITCO. I got a newfound love for No Idea using some cards I've never done before and Shadow Collective is a lot of fun and super weird :)

That said, something I still miss is an overhaul of theme within different factions. Many of them point in every direction - like what should the Empire be about? What should be the defining "trait" of rebels be? Bounty Hunters? Resistance? Imperial navy? The rebel fleet?
I think we could strengthen the game a lot and shore up theme a lot, by defining these and sticking to them.

I think D&D has made some absolutely fabulous decks recently. No idea and SC are some super different decks and HDv oozes theme. Maybe they didn't come out exactly as wanted/expected - but that can be shored up.

I'd like to see stricter adherence to power/forfeit/deploy/destiny relations and less redrawing destinies, and into hand done away with entirely (or put on mid/high destiny crappy characters - that way redrawing it can be a cost). A plan for activation curve would also be good.

I wouldn't be opposed to banning cards at all. We have the opportunity to release the card with a different text, that makes it not OP and useful - why keep sticking around with the OP cards?

Say Speak and EPP maul is considered too unhealthy for a reset meta? Ban them, and release new versions in Set 0. Done deal.

Obviously this is easier said than done. I think D&D is moving the right way. I wish they had done this earlier on.

*Regarding player created cards: I don't know. After the reset, people were given redos - that meant a LOT of people were designing cards and some of them were a little disjointed and there was also pressure on D&D to get these released. I don't know if player cards are generally more troublesome than non-player cards - but they obviously has a tendency to promote what that player likes even though that is maybe not what the game needs.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Jedicon »

aermet69 wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 3:52 pm
Honestly, just recently, I've been more interested in playing - despite HITCO. I got a newfound love for No Idea using some cards I've never done before and Shadow Collective is a lot of fun and super weird :)

That said, something I still miss is an overhaul of theme within different factions. Many of them point in every direction - like what should the Empire be about? What should be the defining "trait" of rebels be? Bounty Hunters? Resistance? Imperial navy? The rebel fleet?
I think we could strengthen the game a lot and shore up theme a lot, by defining these and sticking to them.

I think D&D has made some absolutely fabulous decks recently. No idea and SC are some super different decks and HDv oozes theme. Maybe they didn't come out exactly as wanted/expected - but that can be shored up.

I'd like to see stricter adherence to power/forfeit/deploy/destiny relations and less redrawing destinies, and into hand done away with entirely (or put on mid/high destiny crappy characters - that way redrawing it can be a cost). A plan for activation curve would also be good.

I wouldn't be opposed to banning cards at all. We have the opportunity to release the card with a different text, that makes it not OP and useful - why keep sticking around with the OP cards?

Say Speak and EPP maul is considered too unhealthy for a reset meta? Ban them, and release new versions in Set 0. Done deal.

Obviously this is easier said than done. I think D&D is moving the right way. I wish they had done this earlier on.

*Regarding player created cards: I don't know. After the reset, people were given redos - that meant a LOT of people were designing cards and some of them were a little disjointed and there was also pressure on D&D to get these released. I don't know if player cards are generally more troublesome than non-player cards - but they obviously has a tendency to promote what that player likes even though that is maybe not what the game needs.
Agree with almost everything here. Well said.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by quickdraw3457 »

I think the biggest thing for me is that I want the game to feel different when a new set comes out. I don't just want cards that come from a specific corner of the galaxy, but from a gameplay perspective I want something that hasn't been done before. I would love to see more risks taken like with the flip falcon. I would estimate that the majority of the reason I haven't played much lately is that I don't really like playing online/on gemp (due to length of games and lack of social interaction), but if recent cards felt different, I could probably overlook those online flaws. What I mean is that I think this game has more to offer than mains decks, scrub decks, and space decks. I want new cards to enable me to do something I haven't done in the game before on a bigger level, and not just "I've never played HD with inquisitors before." Those of you that play other games with regular expansions probably know what I mean. When a new set comes out, there are often new mechanics, or new ways to interact with cards, or new rules to broaden the horizons. I just don't feel we've done that lately.

It's absolutely a challenge to do it, and requires a lot of outside the box thinking. I'd go so far as to say I'd love to see us make mistakes if we make them by aiming too high and miss, instead of continuing to aim for a sweet spot that has been done before but misses the mark from balance/theme/gameplay (rops v, ISB helpers, new mains platforms that do the same thing as the old mains platforms plus something extra, or new mirrors or rehashes of pre-reset cards).

To me, talk about power creep and number creep and competitive balance issues and stuff might be technically correct, but they aren't the most important factor. There's so much design space in this game to move sideways into avenues we haven't driven on before that completely challenges what the power curve is and how high we can go. It doesn't have anything to do with a character who has too high of power or too low of a deploy cost, it has to do with the mechanics and how they interact with the game in a different way that we haven't done before.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by CoffeePass »

I'm in favor of a reset.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Corran »

I also want more bad cards. Obviously GEMP and Graphics have to do stuff to make cards, but if Design could design me an unplayable Avar Kriss(Power 4, Ability 6, Deploy 8, forfeit 4, blank game text) and have it out while I'm still excited about Light of the Jedi, how great would that be? Or a Babu Frik Power 2, Ability 2, no text! Cards meant for casual play wouldn't need as much testing and could help fill the gaps between major meta-breaking releases.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by SmallDarkLines »

aermet69 wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 3:52 pm
*Regarding player created cards: I don't know. After the reset, people were given redos - that meant a LOT of people were designing cards and some of them were a little disjointed and there was also pressure on D&D to get these released. I don't know if player cards are generally more troublesome than non-player cards - but they obviously has a tendency to promote what that player likes even though that is maybe not what the game needs.
One of the things I proposed in the survey was to have card groups that help specific decks, and the player cards must be on theme - like the ‘pod’ idea that was floated a while back. The problem with most of the player card choices is that they’re pretty random - sandcrawlers, Ewoks, etc - cards that are going to struggle to fit into decks from the release date, and be relegated to binder fodder.
Most of my player cards have seen little play - to have them taken away after a reset without a chance to rework them would likely result in my collection going up on eBay and quitting. Player cards are my slice of the game - giving a sense of ownership.
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