Day 3: Update

October 19th - October 22nd
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Nitsuj
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Post by Nitsuj »

Of the above two statements, I would say that Schele is closer to right then Kevin.


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Post by CubsFan »

Schele wrote:Pre-redux(i.e. pre-WTO), everyone was playing immunity mains in all of their CP/CR decks. EVERYONE.
If everyone was playing mains and weapon cards, why the heck is WTO such a problem? Either people weren't relying on EPPs to begin with, or people were relying mostly on EPPs and that's why WTO causes so many problems. You can't have it both ways.

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Post by PapaLorax »

CubsFan wrote:
Schele wrote:Pre-redux(i.e. pre-WTO), everyone was playing immunity mains in all of their CP/CR decks. EVERYONE.
If everyone was playing mains and weapon cards, why the heck is WTO such a problem? Either people weren't relying on EPPs to begin with, or people were relying mostly on EPPs and that's why WTO causes so many problems. You can't have it both ways.
Careful Kevin.

You took away CR/CP at the same time...

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Post by mikefrench »

in most decks, there was a mix. endor mains played non epp luke, mace (no epp version, i know) and usually obi too. and then epp quigon. or some mix like that.

reid's endor mains:

Mon Mothma V
General Solo V
Luke Rebel Scout V X4
Mace Windu V X2
Yoda Master of teh Force X2
Obiwan with Lightsaber X2
Quigon whose gametext cannot be canceled X2
Corran Horn
Leia V (or tawss khaa)
Lando, Scoundrel

2x epp obi wan

reid's wys v pre errata (v is for vindicator)

Laudicav
Palejo "Ahmad" Reshad
General Solov
Mon Mothmav
EppQui
EppObi
Corran Horn
Romas Lock Navander
BoShekv
Padme Naberriev
Princess Leiav

1x epp quigon
1x epp obi wan

ddm's mbo:

Luke Skywalker (V) (x2)
General Carlist Rieekan (V)
Mon Mothma (V)
Tigran Jamiro (V)
BoShek (V)
Wedge Antilles, Red Squadron Leader
EPP Obi-Wan (x2)
Princess Organa
Rebel Tech (V)

2x epp obi

booker's trm from last year's worlds:

Mace Windu v x3
Qui-Gon Jinn With Lightsaber x2
Obi-Wan With Lightsaber x2
Leia, Rebel Princess
Lando Calrissian, Scoundral x2
Mon Mothma
Luke Skywalker v
Wedge Antilles, Red Squadron Leader
Corran Horn
Phylo Gandish
Threepio With His Parts Showing

2x epp qui gon
2x epp obi

drew scott's day 3 trm (not a great sample since it was hugely teched vs scum):

Mace Windu (V) x 2
Corran Horn
Obi Wan with Lightsaber x 2
Tanus Spijek (V)
Leia, Rebel Princess x 2
Threepio with His Parts Showing
Lando Calrissian, Scoundrel
Luke with Lightsaber
Qui-Gon with Lightsaber x 2

2x epp quigon
2x epp obi
1x epp luke

you have to go back a whole year more to find a really epp intensive trm, schele's worlds ls 2004:

Qui-Gon Jinn With Lightsaber x2
Obi-Wan With Lightsaber x2
Luke With Lightsaber x2
Lando Calrissian, Scoundrel x2
Corran Horn x2
Han With Heavy Blaster Pistol
Chewie, Enraged
Boussh
Wedge Antilles, Red Squadron Leader
Phylo Gandish
Yoda, Master Of The Force
Threepio With His Parts Showing

finally a deck with 6-7 epps.

honestly. epps were played with a mix of immunity mains in most of these decklists. and endor mains, the premiere ls deck pre-redux, played mostly immunity mains, with 1-2 epps. so saying that "before WTO, everyone was using EPPs and nobody was using immunity mains with weapon cards," isn't really correct.
The Honky Tonk Man wrote:If you want to post trash takes, at least go the Mike French route and come off as being somewhat reasonable.

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Post by Schele »

CubsFan wrote:If everyone was playing mains and weapon cards, why the heck is WTO such a problem? Either people weren't relying on EPPs to begin with, or people were relying mostly on EPPs and that's why WTO causes so many problems. You can't have it both ways.
As Evan said, you removed the CR/CP(V) activation. LS Mains generally cost more than the DS ones(most LS jedi cost 8 or so, DS have vader/emperor/sidious at 6 or less). And EPPs weren't really played that often, so why tone them down for no reason other than "just because we can"?

With the redux came the return of HD to the forefront, and therefore dark jedi in general(remember in the period before that, Scum was more popular and immunity jedi held up well since most aliens didn't have lightsabers). Dark Jedi > LS Jedi due to more destiny adders, cards that cancel lightsabers(weak powers old man and overload being far superior to LS versions), and superior dueling mechanics. Therefore, EPPs came back to the forefront(or would've without WTO), to help deal with the DS Jedi deployed early in the game to cause direct damage/activation boost because they don't require two cards in lost pile to even ATTEMPT to clear someone from table.
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Post by mikefrench »

CubsFan wrote:If everyone was playing mains and weapon cards, why the heck is WTO such a problem? Either people weren't relying on EPPs to begin with, or people were relying mostly on EPPs and that's why WTO causes so many problems. You can't have it both ways.
wto causes problems because mace got redux'd, obi got redux'd, and civil disorder got redux'd. all 3 cards made the immunity mains WAY better than epps. now immunity mains are worse, AND epps are worse. what options are left?
The Honky Tonk Man wrote:If you want to post trash takes, at least go the Mike French route and come off as being somewhat reasonable.

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Post by Schele »

Also might I point out that DS was using just as many EPPs, and even more NOW. Before it was primarily Maul/IG/4Lom, now you throw Mara into the mix. Plus DS characters have built in weapons without them really being weapons(i.e. DLOTS, Sped Fett(V)). How come no one complains about any of these DS characters when they're generally more ridiculous in terms of gameplay than the LS counterparts? Maul even has a destiny 7 pullable effect that boosts his defense and gives him complete immunity!
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Post by Schele »

mikefrench wrote:what options are left?
MBO and goof decks. :wink:
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Post by lawtalkingguy »

Schele wrote:How come no one complains about any of these DS characters when they're generally more ridiculous in terms of gameplay than the LS counterparts?
People do complain, and their complaints are being heard and incorporated into future planning. This is one issue on which your opinion joins vast agreement among the casual playing community and the non-Worlds majority.

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Post by The Franchise »

Schele wrote:
mikefrench wrote:what options are left?
MBO and goof decks. :wink:
wait, isnt mbo a goof deck?
V set 6 and 7 release rountable analysis with Reid, Carulli and myself:

https://forum.starwarsccg.org/viewt ... =2&t=64906

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Post by chriskelly »

Schele wrote:Maul even has a destiny 7 pullable effect that boosts his defense and gives him complete immunity!
Um yeah, but when you lose the EPP the Effect can't stay on the table- it has to go to your Used Pile, and what good is it there?

Oh, wait. Nevermind.

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Post by chriskelly »

I don't know - we've had this discussion before and I still think EPPs are not broken/over-powered or whatever, and even if they were, they've been around so long that so many have been accustomed to them.

I guess I see people's points about how they are really efficient, but I personally think that they're fine. And maybe my opinion doesn't carry much weight because I'm not a superstar, but I also think that they're fun, so maybe that opinion should carry some weight (because once this game stops being fun, it stops getting played). And allegedly design cares about Fun Frank or whatever people like me get labeled and hopefully they understand that EPPs have become a staple and taking them away has a negative impact on people like me who think throwing a deck together full of EPPs and cool interrupts and familar starships is a good use of my time.

Just my opinion, of course.

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Post by mikefrench »

i heart you indiana jones jedi knight
The Honky Tonk Man wrote:If you want to post trash takes, at least go the Mike French route and come off as being somewhat reasonable.

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Post by XjedeyeX »

Indiana Jones Jedi Knight wrote:I don't know - we've had this discussion before and I still think EPPs are not broken/over-powered or whatever, and even if they were, they've been around so long that so many have been accustomed to them.

I guess I see people's points about how they are really efficient, but I personally think that they're fine. And maybe my opinion doesn't carry much weight because I'm not a superstar, but I also think that they're fun, so maybe that opinion should carry some weight (because once this game stops being fun, it stops getting played). And allegedly design cares about Fun Frank or whatever people like me get labeled and hopefully they understand that EPPs have become a staple and taking them away has a negative impact on people like me who think throwing a deck together full of EPPs and cool interrupts and familar starships is a good use of my time.

Just my opinion, of course.
I think EPPs are about the power level that the best character cards should strive for.
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Post by Shadow 13 »

i remember a long time ago when anti-epp cards were first being thought up (the classic format starting effects), brian hunter wrote a bit of an article about why it was essential that epp's have the forfeit=0 text, as a counter to spread and drain strategies. basically it's always possible for a deck to deploy 6 locations and put a random at each one, with a drain potential of 12 on the next turn. the other side then can deploy a main character to one of those randoms and init battle, but it's very difficult to cause overflow approaching that drain potential of 12 without a forfiet = 0 weapon + battle destiny.

anyway i think it's reasonable to assume that EPPs are a balancing factor in the environment, allowing decks like hidden base and SYCFA to disrupt their opponent and introduce a factor of interaction into those games. without epps, those decks are more likely to turtle even further, protecting their own drains without interacting at all with their opponents, turning the game into dual solitaire, something which should be avoided.
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Post by The Franchise »

epps are balancing factors. hd and trm were. what else? i'm just saying, do we have a list of balancing factors in the game? cause if so, design may do best to keep said list in mind.

i mean, in the last year, we've had hd go from solid to bad to overbearing, and trm from solid to not so solid

and its been the cause of a lot of complaints.

this is beyond wto stuff- like, predux hintdown was poor, cause it lost to endor mains, combat and a slew of other ls decks, thanks to mace, obi jedi nugget, and free luke
V set 6 and 7 release rountable analysis with Reid, Carulli and myself:

https://forum.starwarsccg.org/viewt ... =2&t=64906

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