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Lukes Bionic Hand
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Post by Lukes Bionic Hand »

mserisman wrote:So you are saying that "bending over backwards to remove anything even remotely questionable" is a bad thing?

It sounds like the result was exactly as intended - ensure integrity by making a ruling that specifically does not allow warped or marked cards. Hardly a bad thing in my opinion.

Agreed that the ruling should have come out much sooner!!

I have hundreds upon hundreds of foils that are not warped or bent in any way, and so does most everyone who plays this game with any regularity. I also suspect that with the intellect of those who play the game a method of flattening cards one wants to play with in an official tournament will be quickly discovered. :wink:
Wow, way to take part of my quote and NOT FINISH IT.
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mserisman wrote:It seems the "foil" hysteria pre-worlds was overblown.
Not really, because everyone I know bent over backwards to remove anything even remotely questionable from their decks, which in many cases involved removing just about every foil. That there were no major issues with the ruling doesn't change the fact that it was a poorly conceived and poorly implemented in the days before worlds.
This means people were so afraid of what would happen if someone made a big deal out of a foil that they took most or all of them out, regardless of whether or not they were warped enough to be considered marked. Kind of seems to back up the argument of a de facto foil ban to me.


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Post by Jim Jerriko »

Luke's Bionic Hand wrote:
This means people were so afraid of what would happen if someone made a big deal out of a foil that they took most or all of them out, regardless of whether or not they were warped enough to be considered marked. Kind of seems to back up the argument of a de facto foil ban to me.
No, not at all. I played my foils and two were even foil Maul with sticks. My foils are not bent, so nothing to worry about. If this is all there is to complain about AFTER worlds about bent cards, I think the goal was accomplished.

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Post by mserisman »

Agreed.

I think the reaction of removing all foils is absurd, but to each his own. Like I said I can't tell the difference on mine.
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Post by retwin316 »

As far as the foils thing went. I used every signed card i had that was foil, no matter what, and kept a box with me all day that has replacements if anyone complained.

Day 3 i forgot all about it as i was tired when i decided there was a good chance i would be using huntdown, and forgot to remove foils. I woulda left all my signed cards in anyways.

I got called on foils once all weekend, in the semi's of day 3. I looked for a db with only 2 cards left. One was a maul foil, and the other not a foil. So Justin asked me to replace the maul, and i can totally understand where he was coming from, because we could both tell where it was. So i replaced it.

Other than that there didn't seem to be issues in any games for anyone i think.

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Post by Nitsuj »

mserisman wrote:Agreed.

I think the reaction of removing all foils is absurd, but to each his own. Like I said I can't tell the difference on mine.
It doesn't matter if YOU can't tell. It matters if I can tell, and if I can convince a Judge that I can tell.

And if I'm an butthole, what can YOU do about it?

That is my problem with the ruling, it just makes it too easy to be an butthole. And rather than deal with buttholes, I'll just take out all my foils. It appears that many others came to the same conclusion.

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Post by mserisman »

We don't have any buttholes like that here.

When I say "I can't tell" it literally means that. You could pick up 3 or 4 cards and get lucky in picking a foil I suppose.

Your statement is an interesting commentary on the community though....something to be proud of.

I am convinced that there was no way that ruling could not have been made, and that guideline established. Otherwise using obviously warped cards for an advantage would be considered "legal"? The ruling is the correct one.
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Post by Nitsuj »

A few things....

1. My comment has nothing to do with the community, it has to do with elements of the community. Obviously 9 out of 10 players are not buttholes. but what about the 1 that is? And if there is one out there, does that mean the community is nothing but buttholes? So, before you try to suggest that I am slamming the community, but that was a real nice try to make me look like a penis that hates all SW players.

2. What is a Judge to do when someone is a butthole? The safe thing to do, for the integrity of the game, is to ask the other player to just replace their foils. The judge just can't say: "Don't be a butthole". Because if you are a butthole, you can be buttholish about being a butthole.

3. Now, if #is the best thing to do is to just ask the foil player to replace their foil when requested by a butthole, (and I think it is), this is where the arbitrary cap of 2 proxies comes into question.

Hence, this is why I think a majority of players had a problem with the ruling. At least, it is why I have a problem with it.

Again, everyone will agree that using warped foils is marking cards. My issue isn't so much about that, as it is how to handle the butthole that wants to grind their axe on my deck. Had I gone to worlds, this issue would have resulted in me removing all the foils from my deck, just to stop the buttholes from being buttholes. It looks like many other players reached the same conclusion.

Finally, if that is what many other players did, of course the foil issue was a non-issue - because everyone took foils out of their decks, just to play it safe. It doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with the policy, it just means that the players worked around a faulty policy.

If you cannot recognize this, then do what you do. Quote only a small part of this discussion, attempt to slam me as a person, or whatever other club you want to pull from your bag of tricks.

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Post by SirYoda »

Easy. If someone says they can tell that my non-warped foils are warped, then they will have to prove it to me (and a judge). I will turn them face-down with a half-dozen other non-foil cards and make you pick the foil. If you can, I will replace it. If you can't then you're just being an ass and screw you.

Oh, and I played with gobs of foils at worlds, and had zero problems.
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Post by band_member »

Nobody really cared much about the foil ruling all weekend I agree. Mostly because we have players that aren't 'buttholes' who could care less about the whole foil fiasco. That last sentence was true before mserisman made it his job to ban foils and it is true after.
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Post by mserisman »

Nitsuj wrote:A few things....

1. My comment has nothing to do with the community, it has to do with elements of the community. Obviously 9 out of 10 players are not buttholes. but what about the 1 that is? And if there is one out there, does that mean the community is nothing but buttholes? So, before you try to suggest that I am slamming the community, but that was a real nice try to make me look like a penis that hates all SW players.

2. What is a Judge to do when someone is a butthole? The safe thing to do, for the integrity of the game, is to ask the other player to just replace their foils. The judge just can't say: "Don't be a butthole". Because if you are a butthole, you can be buttholish about being a butthole.

3. Now, if #is the best thing to do is to just ask the foil player to replace their foil when requested by a butthole, (and I think it is), this is where the arbitrary cap of 2 proxies comes into question.

Hence, this is why I think a majority of players had a problem with the ruling. At least, it is why I have a problem with it.

Again, everyone will agree that using warped foils is marking cards. My issue isn't so much about that, as it is how to handle the butthole that wants to grind their axe on my deck. Had I gone to worlds, this issue would have resulted in me removing all the foils from my deck, just to stop the buttholes from being buttholes. It looks like many other players reached the same conclusion.

Finally, if that is what many other players did, of course the foil issue was a non-issue - because everyone took foils out of their decks, just to play it safe. It doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with the policy, it just means that the players worked around a faulty policy.

If you cannot recognize this, then do what you do. Quote only a small part of this discussion, attempt to slam me as a person, or whatever other club you want to pull from your bag of tricks.
Quoting the entire post....

I am saying simply this:

I have been playing this game with foils for 4 years or so. I have never had a problem, nor have I played with a card that was warped enough to tell. If one of my foils was that warped, I flattened it enough to play, or took it out. That wasn't about a "rule" just about trying to play fair.

When the player community spent a couple dozen pages talking about the problem of obviously warped foils being technically "legal" the ruling was made.

If it were entirely up to me I would have simply left the guideline at "It is not legal to play with warped, bent or marked cards". No proxies, no exceptions.

Anyway, it appears that some went way conservative and took out all foils, while many just played the way they always did - with no warped or marked cards.
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Post by mserisman »

band_member wrote:Nobody really cared much about the foil ruling all weekend I agree. Mostly because we have players that aren't 'buttholes' who could care less about the whole foil fiasco. That last sentence was true before mserisman made it his job to ban foils and it is true after.
Thanks for the smile this morning. :D

I am not even sure what to say about that, so how about I just leave you with the sense that I have that kind of power......
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Post by Nitsuj »

SirYoda wrote:Easy. If someone says they can tell that my non-warped foils are warped, then they will have to prove it to me (and a judge). I will turn them face-down with a half-dozen other non-foil cards and make you pick the foil. If you can, I will replace it. If you can't then you're just being an ass and screw you.

Oh, and I played with gobs of foils at worlds, and had zero problems.
To the butthole, it doesn't matter if THEY can tell what the foil is, it matters if YOU can tell.

The safest play for the judge, is to just ask the foil player to replace their foils. Not to side with the foil player against the butthole. Because then the butthole comes on here and complains about judge colluding with foil player. Or just the accusation can be enough to rattle the foil player in a high pressure game.

The fact is, this policy can lead to confrontations. And I as a player need to ask myself - do I want to deal with those confrontations? Or do I just swap out my foils.

If the 2 proxy limit is removed, then problem solved. Then again, the proxy solution is not happening in the 2008 circuit, so I guess the problem still exists for players that only have certain cards in foil form, and don't necessarily want to deal with buttholes.

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Post by SirYoda »

Nitsuj wrote:To the butthole, it doesn't matter if THEY can tell what the foil is, it matters if YOU can tell.
This is very true. But I still think that if a player is going to be that much of a butthole about supposedly "bent foils" then they will probably be a butthole about everything else too. Ergo, bent foils are immaterial.

One example, at worlds I played against a player who was using opaque blue sleeves. It looked like he spread them out face-down over his table one day, grabbed a toothpick, and then started jabbing them all uncontrolably for several minutes. They had little nicks and bends all over them. I could have been a butthole and accused him of cheating, even though they were just "used" sleeves, but why? Do you really think a judge would come make him replace all his sleeves if I complained? I think the judge would ask for proof, examine them himself, and make a decision based on that.

Making a ruling about foils will not prevent stuff like this from happening. If someone wants to be a butthole, they will be, foils or not. That's all I'm saying. :)
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Post by Nitsuj »

but Steven, you are not a butthole. The player you played against took a risk playing those sleeves, and had they played a butthole, they would have likely needed to resleeve them.

Carr required Hunter to resleeve his deck in 2006 worlds, even though they were new sleeves. They were too reflexive for Carr. Now, is Carr a butthole? No... he did what he felt necessary, as judge, to insure an event with integrity.

Yes, buttholes will be buttholes. But lets not give 'em something to be buttholish about.

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Post by Terron »

The important thing about this rule is that IF someone plays with a warped foil, I can now call them on it and they can be DQed. That is important, because ghetto tracking is crap and shouldn't be allowed.
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Post by mserisman »

Nitsuj wrote:but Steven, you are not a butthole. The player you played against took a risk playing those sleeves, and had they played a butthole, they would have likely needed to resleeve them.

Carr required Hunter to resleeve his deck in 2006 worlds, even though they were new sleeves. They were too reflexive for Carr. Now, is Carr a butthole? No... he did what he felt necessary, as judge, to insure an event with integrity.

Yes, buttholes will be buttholes. But lets not give 'em something to be buttholish about.
I think that the "butthole" is taking a risk. Let's say he picks on a card and tries to show it is a foil and therefore must be replaced. What if the card is flipped and it isn't a foil?

I would suggest the player take a few minutes to perhaps bend the card flat, reshuffle, and if the "butthole" cannot pick the card again, then it is not in the category of a "marked card".

In this case the "butthole" is the one who looks really bad. Now granted sometimes these poeple won't care, but in my personal opinion I feel that this level of play is in reality very rare. If they are that determined to be a "butthole" then they will be regardless.

The rule was the correct one and IMO will not be a problem for 99% of players going forward.
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Post by SirYoda »

Terron wrote:The important thing about this rule is that IF someone plays with a warped foil, I can now call them on it and they can be DQed.
I'm not sure this statement is accurate. Erisman? I assumed the judge would make a ruling of some kind like "replace that card with a proxy and keep playing." Being DQ'ed is saved for intentional, malicious cheating. And if someone intentionally packed a bent foil to track its destiny number, then he/she deserves to be DQ'ed. I have no problem with that.
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Post by mserisman »

Terron wrote:The important thing about this rule is that IF someone plays with a warped foil, I can now call them on it and they can be DQed. That is important, because ghetto tracking is crap and shouldn't be allowed.
This is absolutely correct.

That is why the rule was put in place to begin with.
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Post by Nitsuj »

mserisman wrote:
Nitsuj wrote:but Steven, you are not a butthole. The player you played against took a risk playing those sleeves, and had they played a butthole, they would have likely needed to resleeve them.

Carr required Hunter to resleeve his deck in 2006 worlds, even though they were new sleeves. They were too reflexive for Carr. Now, is Carr a butthole? No... he did what he felt necessary, as judge, to insure an event with integrity.

Yes, buttholes will be buttholes. But lets not give 'em something to be buttholish about.
I think that the "butthole" is taking a risk. Let's say he picks on a card and tries to show it is a foil and therefore must be replaced. What if the card is flipped and it isn't a foil?

I would suggest the player take a few minutes to perhaps bend the card flat, reshuffle, and if the "butthole" cannot pick the card again, then it is not in the category of a "marked card".

In this case the "butthole" is the one who looks really bad. Now granted sometimes these poeple won't care, but in my personal opinion I feel that this level of play is in reality very rare. If they are that determined to be a "butthole" then they will be regardless.

The rule was the correct one and IMO will not be a problem for 99% of players going forward.
Why does the butthole have to prove which card is the foil? It really doesn't matter to the butthole if he can identify it or not. It matters if the foil player can identify it. And that would be the butthole's position on the subject. So, now the Judge needs to decide what to do. The easiest solution would be to just have the foil player swap out there card and continue on. The other solution would be to tell the butthole to go fark themself. Either solution leads to a judge's decision - one that I cannot be sure if they will back or not.

This is pointless anyway.... because I as a player, when I am in putting cards in my deck - do I want to deal with buttholes? No, I deal with them enough. So, I put non-foils in my deck. That is the problem with the policy. An entire class of cards are dangerous to play, not by reasonable measures - but by butthole measures. Do I want to deal with this headache? What if the Judge sides with the butthole? What does that mean to me?

The safe bet is to just not play foils. And that is the problem.

Now, if a majority of players opts not to play with foils, and then it never comes up in tournament play as an issue - does that mean the policy is right? No, you don't really know anything about the policy. Players are working around the policy. The similarity between this topic and another topic is hilarious.

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Post by PapaLorax »

Nitsuj wrote:Now, if a majority of players opts not to play with foils, and then it never comes up in tournament play as an issue - does that mean the policy is right?
Right? Who knows...effective - yes. The policy was put in place to get people to not play cards that are 'marked'. As a result people aren't playing foils...therefore less potentially marked cards are being played.

I don't know how you could possible argue that the result of the policy wasn't effective. You can say it's not positive - or even not better for the game. But the policy (well the way it was implemented at worlds) did what it was supposed to do.

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