Raveling World's Journal

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imrahil327
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Post by imrahil327 »

Can I just ask what question 20 has to do with ANYTHING? I just saw it, and it's completely ridiculous, as is the WYS question since we already know that's legal.


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Post by PapaLorax »

Garrett I don't intend this to "call you out" or anything, because I believe I am on your side for all of these things. However, that 'slippery slope' is a ride you appear to ride as well.
Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Cheating – Cheating is not a strategic option and it is not tolerated.
Raveling made a strategic option to not play by the cards on the table. We all appear to do this (or most of us when it comes to First Strike...it's a great example). I think the big problem is the "cheating" is not defined...and therefore everyone makes their own definition.

To some cheating is adding cards, not losing X force, or not following monnok to the letter...to others it's something different.
Unsportsmanlike Conduct – Scouting – Scouting is defined as intentionally gathering details about a deck that an opponent is playing outside of normal game play situations. It is understood that due to playing space constraints, under most circumstances, it is impossible to prevent some details from being unintentionally gathered over the course of a tournament.
So "he was playing huntdown" falls under this definition IMO...and certainly your full example for information sharing is blatently under the rule. I think the key with scouting is that having unenforceable rules just doesn't benefit anyone...totally open scouting seems awful for this game (because of hidden base), but anything else is totally honor system and those things only screw the honorable people.
Terron wrote:Can't we settle this like real virgins?

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Post by PapaLorax »

imrahil327 wrote:Can I just ask what question 20 has to do with ANYTHING? I just saw it, and it's completely ridiculous, as is the WYS question since we already know that's legal.
WYS example is not legal at all...unless I don't know of a rule change.
Terron wrote:Can't we settle this like real virgins?

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Post by deadbody »

Don't worry I'm not taking anything that gets said her personal. I have no problem being clearer on cheating, and I've made it clear that I do not agree with the option Mike picked, but by a reading of the rules, and the way the game has been played, I have trouble calling it cheating. I'm in the "Grey" camp that Brian talked about as it everyone else, most of that is because the "Grey" area is so large. I'd rather be in the MikeFrench camp where everyone takes responsibility for all the cards on table.

If we close in the grey areas (which we are working on) then we close them in on all things, and that will include collusion and scouting.

FYI prize splits I have no problem with.

Garrett
PapaLorax wrote:Garrett I don't intend this to "call you out" or anything, because I believe I am on your side for all of these things. However, that 'slippery slope' is a ride you appear to ride as well.
Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Cheating – Cheating is not a strategic option and it is not tolerated.
Raveling made a strategic option to not play by the cards on the table. We all appear to do this (or most of us when it comes to First Strike...it's a great example). I think the big problem is the "cheating" is not defined...and therefore everyone makes their own definition.

To some cheating is adding cards, not losing X force, or not following monnok to the letter...to others it's something different.
Unsportsmanlike Conduct – Scouting – Scouting is defined as intentionally gathering details about a deck that an opponent is playing outside of normal game play situations. It is understood that due to playing space constraints, under most circumstances, it is impossible to prevent some details from being unintentionally gathered over the course of a tournament.
So "he was playing huntdown" falls under this definition IMO...and certainly your full example for information sharing is blatently under the rule. I think the key with scouting is that having unenforceable rules just doesn't benefit anyone...totally open scouting seems awful for this game (because of hidden base), but anything else is totally honor system and those things only screw the honorable people.
Terron wrote:Does some RPG book list the Rockwell hardness of AT-AT ankles? Can't we settle this like real virgins?
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Post by imrahil327 »

PapaLorax wrote:
imrahil327 wrote:Can I just ask what question 20 has to do with ANYTHING? I just saw it, and it's completely ridiculous, as is the WYS question since we already know that's legal.
WYS example is not legal at all...unless I don't know of a rule change.
As long as you state that you're using WYS' text (and the objective is flipped, lol), you are free to look through at any time and choose one that you can legally play, or allow your opponent to verify that there isn't a legal one there and use up your OPT.


Garrett, can we make sure the prize split thing gets nixed, if everyone's in agreement that it's dumb?
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Hunter wrote:Sebulba's W-L record is like...Always and 1. Tebow's is nowhere near that percentage.
allstarz97, about M:TG wrote:I feel like Michael Jordan playing baseball.

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Post by Pistone84 »

Hunter wrote:
But he answers Raveling's test the same as Pistone, and also will not enforce his OWN First Strike when the opponent initiates a battle.
One caveat, I'd lose to it but I wouldn't remind them to retrieve. The question asked was about them retrieving with it. That's on them. As far as I'm concerned, I'm following the rules of my card and they're being forgetful and it's not my job to help them.
If you listen to Mike French, they are both cheating, so if you know you are Grey, shouldn't you leave it to the "Good" to tell the "Evil" that they are cheaters? If you know you are Grey, shouldn't you leave it to the "Good" to make a Blacklist? I'm Grey too, and that being the case, I didn't feel I was the best person to tell Raveling what a cheater he is. So I'm surprised to see several of my fellow Greys doing exactly that.
I think a major difference is that Raveling intentionally messed around with his V-Slips so that he could get around Monnok. This is more than just not correcting your opponent's mistake midgame, its a deliberate effort to try to cheat your opponent.

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Post by Steviegets112 »

Trying to ban prize splitting is just asinine, not to mention it wont happen. This game is and has always revolved around teams of players. Whether your teammates are your best friends or just other players in your playing area. You spend all year long testing, talking tech, etc with these players in preparation for worlds or other major events. After all of this it is just natural to wish success for your teammates. This is where prize splitting comes into play. Scouting is also pretty stupid to attempt to enforce. Aside from the fact that no place we ever hold tournaments in is large enough to seperate players from the playing area. I dont give a * what any of you have to say but you can be damn sure that I am going to tell my teammates exactly what I played against in my last game, and trust me I am not the only person who does this. This is another reason why it is hard to enforce scouting....becuase it doesn't matter whether or not I or someone else watches a particular game if you want to find out what someone is playing it is going to happen.

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Post by Nitsuj »

band_member wrote:Michael Raveling's SWCCG Morality Test:
Here's a simple test of your morality in relation to SWCCG. You don't need to answer publicly or anything but maybe just answer these questions yourself.
I haven't read much of anything on this thread, but wanted to take the test...
band_member wrote:1. If your opponent plays Monnok and doesn't remove all doubles from your hand, would you voluntarily lose those he missed?
Yes
band_member wrote:2. If your opponent plays Scanning Crew and doesn't remove a rebel that is in your hand, would you ask him if he wanted to remove that rebel?
Yes
band_member wrote:3. If your opponent does not remind you to lose to their Visage Of The Emperor, would you still lose to it?
No
band_member wrote:4. If your opponent does not remind you to lose to your Visage Of The Emperor and it benefits you not to lose to it, would you still lose to it?
Yes
band_member wrote:5. If your opponent has First Strike on table against you, would you remind them to retrieve a force when they initiate battle against you?
No
band_member wrote:6. If you have First Strike on table, would you remind your opponent to retrieve a force when they initiate battle against you?
Yes
band_member wrote:7. Do you scout (watch) other people's games during a tournament when you still might have a chance to play that person?
Depends on players in question, attendees, and level of the event. Local level event? I'm watching no matter what, unless asked not to. Only friends at the event, like a regional event that only Team OH and PA regulars showed up to? Probably, unless asked not to. Team OH verses Random dude, I'd probably ask the players if they mind, and if they don't then I would. But I wouldn't necessarily be watching any of these games to gain a strategic edge, as much as I like to watch a well played game of SWCCG.
band_member wrote:8. Do you discuss game details with other people after a tournament game when those other people may play the same opponent?
Yes
band_member wrote:9. Do you discuss cards used by your opponent against you with other people after a tournament game when those other people may play the same opponent?
Yes
band_member wrote:10. Would you and another player actively 'fudge' a tournament score (either win by more or lose by less) to try to place yourself or another player higher in the standings?
I've never asked someone to do this for me, but I have gone along with it when asked if I would do it - I just tell them to report the game as they want.
band_member wrote:11. Would you ask another player to give you a full win in a case where your game was timed out and you would get a timed win and there was no way to actually get a full win?
band_member wrote:eally looked like I would win the game with no time limit.
band_member wrote:12. Would you ask another player to give you a full win in a case where your game was timed out and you would get a timed loss and there was no way to actually get a full win?
No
band_member wrote:13. Would you intentionally misplay your own card during a game if you knew the opponent had a high chance of allowing the misplay and it meant you would win the game?
No
band_member wrote:14. Your opponent makes a mistake with a rule and that mistake benefits you. Do you correct them?
No
band_member wrote:15. Your opponent force drains you for 2 when they could force drain you for more. Do you correct them?
No
band_member wrote:16. Would you use Japanese cards even though you know it makes it hard for your opponent to read your cards and some players may not know the text of that card?
No, I would have an english copy available to show, but typically I don't play Japanese cards.
band_member wrote:17. You play Out of Commission on your opponent, they somehow make it so you know which card is the one you would prefer to have go out of play. Do you correct them and have them re-shuffle their cards?
Yes, I would confess that I know the card, tell them to be more careful and do a do-over.
band_member wrote:18. Do you actively discuss an opponent's Hidden Base location with other player's during a tournament?
I want to say no, but if a team mate, collaborator asked me I'd probably tell them.
band_member wrote:19. You are playing Watch Your Step and you don't know what cards are in your lost pile. Do you look through it?
No. I declare that I'm playing a card from lost pile during a random point in the game where I don't really need to and draw phase and make note of what is in there for the future.
band_member wrote:20. Your opponent has lost the game and is drawing up. Do you play cards that retrieve or used interrupts to increase your differential?
Yes
band_member wrote:21. Your opponent holds their hand in such a way that you can see the cards they have in their hand. Do you look?
I would correct them to protect their hand, and try not to look.
band_member wrote:22. Your opponent forgets to move a key guy away from a stack of your guys. The turn moves past your opponent's move phase and sometime after that they discover they did not move that guy away. Do you allow them to? What if it's during your turn?
Depends on the opponent and the nature of the game. Friends or scrubs - I would correct them. Rival? I would not correct them.
band_member wrote:I'm sure I could come up with more questions here. Not all of them are dirty or 'cheating' I know. But some are, right? I'm not saying all of them are equally 'bad' as what I did or that any of them even come close. But some do, don't they?
Guess how many of those questions come from tournament play. Guess how many are examples that I'm 100% certain are done by some of the people writing on this thread.

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Post by band_member »

I think it's courageous of you guys to answer my quiz. You saw that I got blasted but you still are answering it even though you run the risk of being blasted yourself and could end up getting the 'Joe Gianeetti' treatment. Not that answering it takes away from my cheating at all but just that everyone has different answers which is totally befuddling my logic powers to understand. I also think it's kind of strange that some keep calling for my head but haven't done filled out the quiz themselves....cough...schele...cough. I think you aren't doing it because you're scared.
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Post by Schele »

band_member wrote:I think it's courageous of you guys to answer my quiz. You saw that I got blasted but you still are answering it even though you run the risk of being blasted yourself and could end up getting the 'Joe Gianeetti' treatment. Not that answering it takes away from my cheating at all but just that everyone has different answers which is totally befuddling my logic powers to understand. I also think it's kind of strange that some keep calling for my head but haven't done filled out the quiz themselves....cough...schele...cough. I think you aren't doing it because you're scared.
Or because it's an obvious ploy by you to redirect the attention away from yourself and waste everyone's time.

But if you think it'll solve anything (which it won't, since your "logic" is nonexistent), I'll fill it out when I have time later.
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Post by PapaLorax »

band_member wrote:I think it's courageous of you guys to answer my quiz. You saw that I got blasted but you still are answering it even though you run the risk of being blasted yourself and could end up getting the 'Joe Gianeetti' treatment.
I think most people are more concerned about you cheating scott in a casual game than the monnok thing. To me that questions your character the most...as in "if he will cheat someone like Scott in a meaningless game, what would he do in a game that matters."...well at least that's my guess.

I have met you, don't really have any problems with you...so it's no big deal. You did what I think most people would do...well except the "admitting it later" part.
Terron wrote:Can't we settle this like real virgins?

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Post by band_member »

I do love the attention. Why would I ever want it directed anywhere other than right at me? I'm the most important person in SWCCG. This is a joke. I do joke from time to time.
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Post by mikefrench »

band_member wrote:I do love the attention. Why would I ever want it directed anywhere other than right at me? I'm the most important person in SWCCG. This is a joke. I do joke from time to time.
it's hard to tell, because usually jokes are funny.
The Honky Tonk Man wrote:If you want to post trash takes, at least go the Mike French route and come off as being somewhat reasonable.

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Post by Schele »

mikefrench wrote:
band_member wrote:I do love the attention. Why would I ever want it directed anywhere other than right at me? I'm the most important person in SWCCG. This is a joke. I do joke from time to time.
it's hard to tell, because usually jokes are funny.
This.
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Post by Pistone84 »

The thing that I can't get past is the different slips to deliberately deceive opponents. This is blatant cheating.

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Post by band_member »

I also used alternate image cards so I had 2 Panaka's in normal and 2 in AI. 2 Queens AI and 2 normal. I also tend to split some cards into white border and some into black if I have that option. Anything to make my 'same' cards look 'different'.
-Our game's card designer said "...something as inconsequential as the World Championships for a very dorky hobby."
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Post by imrahil327 »

band_member wrote:I also used alternate image cards so I had 2 Panaka's in normal and 2 in AI. 2 Queens AI and 2 normal. I also tend to split some cards into white border and some into black if I have that option. Anything to make my 'same' cards look 'different'.
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Hunter wrote:Sebulba's W-L record is like...Always and 1. Tebow's is nowhere near that percentage.
allstarz97, about M:TG wrote:I feel like Michael Jordan playing baseball.

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Post by CategoryOneGames.com »

band_member wrote:I also used alternate image cards so I had 2 Panaka's in normal and 2 in AI. 2 Queens AI and 2 normal. I also tend to split some cards into white border and some into black if I have that option. Anything to make my 'same' cards look 'different'.
I wonder how his taxes look.
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Post by puck71 »

Pistone84 wrote:The thing that I can't get past is the different slips to deliberately deceive opponents. This is blatant cheating.
Which rule does it break?

If there's not a specific rule that it breaks, I definitely think there should be one. I don't know how restrictive it needs to be, but at a minimum I think there should be a rule that all v-slips of the same card need to be the same in your deck. "The same" meaning that they're all the same size and shape.

But would that include color vs. black and white? I guess it would have to? That would throw me for a loop as I got the PC's awesome color set, but if I have to play another copy of a v-card it's usually black and white.
Last edited by puck71 on October 28th, 2008, 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mikefrench »

puck71 wrote:
Pistone84 wrote:The thing that I can't get past is the different slips to deliberately deceive opponents. This is blatant cheating.
Which rule does it break?
is there a rule against murdering your opponent in the middle of the game? there doesn't need to be a rule to tell us that something this obvious is "cheating."
The Honky Tonk Man wrote:If you want to post trash takes, at least go the Mike French route and come off as being somewhat reasonable.

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