Worlds Games Should Not...

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Worlds Games Should Not...

Post by band_member »

Day 3 Worlds games should not end in a time-out. I think an alternate solution would be something like give a game an hour. After the hour each player has 5 minutes to complete a turn. If a player can't complete their turn in five minutes the judge makes the player's turn end and the other player starts their turn. Maybe there's an alternate system that would work better than this but having a Day 3 game end on time seems less than optimal.


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Post by imrahil327 »

I agree that at VERY least, the finals should not be timed, and perhaps all day 3 games as well. The alternative you describe would be very difficult to rule on, but if there is a better one, I'd certainly be open to hear it.

The biggest issue I see with complete untimed games on day 3 is travel accommodations. Granted, people should set up their flights and such in a way that they are able to stay for the entire event, but I could see this being abused, either intentionally or not.
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the cons never close!
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Re: Worlds Games Should Not...

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band_member wrote:Day 3 Worlds games should not end in a time-out. I think an alternate solution would be something like give a game an hour. After the hour each player has 5 minutes to complete a turn. If a player can't complete their turn in five minutes the judge makes the player's turn end and the other player starts their turn. Maybe there's an alternate system that would work better than this but having a Day 3 game end on time seems less than optimal.
this wouldn't really work, because both players can take actions each turn. So the opponent could stall in the opponents turn and end their turn. Or if you want to initiate like 3 battle in one turn, there just wouldn't be time even if you both are playing normally.

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Re: Worlds Games Should Not...

Post by band_member »

Kinslayer wrote:
band_member wrote:Day 3 Worlds games should not end in a time-out. I think an alternate solution would be something like give a game an hour. After the hour each player has 5 minutes to complete a turn. If a player can't complete their turn in five minutes the judge makes the player's turn end and the other player starts their turn. Maybe there's an alternate system that would work better than this but having a Day 3 game end on time seems less than optimal.
this wouldn't really work, because both players can take actions each turn. So the opponent could stall in the opponents turn and end their turn. Or if you want to initiate like 3 battle in one turn, there just wouldn't be time even if you both are playing normally.
Hmm you're right but there has to be a better way than just ending the game.
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Post by bluethrawn »

The only problem with timing match play on Day 3 is the scoring it fairly. Or is it an issue that players do not get an infinite amount of time to think through every single action and have to budget their time?

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Post by imrahil327 »

I think the scoring system we used is as fair as possible time-wise, especially with the good amount of updates we gave. It's so tough, because 'infinite' time vs. 1 hour and 15 mins/game (current tourney guidelines- less than even the MPC gets) is a big difference. It would be nice to find a happy medium, and definitely allow the worlds finals to be untimed.
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Post by arebelspy »

the time issue is fine with 1:30 games.. also it was ruled that match play timed wins count for 2 full victory points with the differential being the difference between the two player's life force, so that helps a LOT.

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Post by Jeeps »

What about those things that Chess players use where the slap the clock and say "go" and the other person makes a move and slaps the clock and says "go" then the other guy makes a move and slaps the clock and says "go" and then the Russian stands up and walks out of the room blaming Bobby Fisher for the ills of society...
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Post by bluethrawn »

Jeeps wrote:What about those things that Chess players use where the slap the clock and say "go" and the other person makes a move and slaps the clock and says "go" then the other guy makes a move and slaps the clock and says "go" and then the Russian stands up and walks out of the room blaming Bobby Fisher for the ills of society...
I was thinking about that. Many chess clocks can be set up to allow a specific amount of time per move. The problem is that a move in chess is more significant than an action in SWCCG, actions often require additional time to resolve (there isn't a way to account for that on a chess clock), and there are many, many more actions in a game of SW than there are moves in a game of chess. The clock would probably explode.

It's the right idea though. Logistically the important thing is to keep the game moving along (kind of like MLB umpires do all season long, though mysteriously fail to do in the postseason as if prime time ratings matter). If a certain pace were maintained, by minimizing the 2, 3, 4+ minute delays between actions, the game/match time limit might be able to be done away with entirely.

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Post by PapaLorax »

If we just had a perfect computer program to play on that could do exact chess clock (ala Magic Online) it would all be perfect.

Short of that, I think going to 90 minutes is perfectly fair. The next step is the get a judge involved more directly to force the action...and I don't think anyone would advocate that (or at least I am sure the vast majority of people would not prefer that).
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Post by Kinslayer »

chess clocks would not really work as you'd have to switch aftervevery action. Activating would be tons of fun. Act 1, hit clock, opponent hits it back, act another 1, hit again, repeat. That would make like every game go to time.

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Post by itcouldbewirfs »

The chess clock idea could work. I coach a chess team so have experience with what the clocks can do. I can try some ideas at the locals i run this next year to see if it can work.

Chess clocks have a countdown for each player when it is their action, so each player would get 30 minutes in a normal game. If your time runs out, you get a full loss depleting life force completely.

The game would go like this:
DEFINITION: "Hits the Clock" means switching who's clock's time is running out.
Grace period for starting cards.
When both players are ready, Light side "Hits his Clock", starting dark side's clock.
Dark Side takes any actions including activationg force. If the light side wants to take an action during dark sides turn the player announces it and the dark player "Hits the Clock" indicating that the light side player may take his action.
(I would modify this so that if Dark side is searching his reserve and light side wants to do a search at the same time, the dark player only "Hits the Clock" if he finishes his search first.)
Dark side continues turn as normal and may prompt opponent for actions verbally. Dark Side only "Hits the clock" if Light side does does not respond promptly to the option of taking an action (thinking/deciding), or if Light Side takes an action. If light side passes on the action he "Hits the Clock" to let Darkside proceed.
During Deploy Dark Side should pause or ask for an action after each card to let Light Side Respond. Darkside only "Hits the Clock" for reasons listed above.
All phases should follow the same proceedure. If Light Side is not given a chance to respond to a Dark Side action (for example skipping from activate phase to draw phase) Light Side simple asks to go back to the phase and darkside "Hits the Clock" while Light Side takes their action.

I will try playtesting this with Steve and see how it goes. I welcome any feedback.
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Post by THeElf »

itcouldbewirfs wrote:The chess clock idea could work. I coach a chess team so have experience with what the clocks can do. I can try some ideas at the locals i run this next year to see if it can work.

Chess clocks have a countdown for each player when it is their action, so each player would get 30 minutes in a normal game. If your time runs out, you get a full loss depleting life force completely.

The game would go like this:
DEFINITION: "Hits the Clock" means switching who's clock's time is running out.
Grace period for starting cards.
When both players are ready, Light side "Hits his Clock", starting dark side's clock.
Dark Side takes any actions including activationg force. If the light side wants to take an action during dark sides turn the player announces it and the dark player "Hits the Clock" indicating that the light side player may take his action.
(I would modify this so that if Dark side is searching his reserve and light side wants to do a search at the same time, the dark player only "Hits the Clock" if he finishes his search first.)
Dark side continues turn as normal and may prompt opponent for actions verbally. Dark Side only "Hits the clock" if Light side does does not respond promptly to the option of taking an action (thinking/deciding), or if Light Side takes an action. If light side passes on the action he "Hits the Clock" to let Darkside proceed.
During Deploy Dark Side should pause or ask for an action after each card to let Light Side Respond. Darkside only "Hits the Clock" for reasons listed above.
All phases should follow the same proceedure. If Light Side is not given a chance to respond to a Dark Side action (for example skipping from activate phase to draw phase) Light Side simple asks to go back to the phase and darkside "Hits the Clock" while Light Side takes their action.

I will try playtesting this with Steve and see how it goes. I welcome any feedback.
chris i love it! it will have some people confused but all in all it's a great idea
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Post by imrahil327 »

I really don't think chess clocks are a good idea- for one thing, the PC doesn't have the money to buy a bunch of chess clocks. That's certainly not the ONLY reason it wouldn't work, but I'd rather have them put money toward prizes than clocks.
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Post by Shadow 13 »

Brad Eier wrote:the cons never close!
false. LOTR continentals at Origins both years that i played in it (2003/2004 i think) had day 2 with timed games to 45 minutes because the con closed at 6pm and we had to be out of the hall by then. however that's just sunday night, obv thursday-saturday there's no last call.
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Post by itcouldbewirfs »

I thought we were talking about Day 3 when there would only be 3 games to be timed. Or for final confrontations. I will bring the clocks. At chess tournaments players are expected to bring their own clocks... You can get an OK chess clock for $25.
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Post by imrahil327 »

itcouldbewirfs wrote:I thought we were talking about Day 3 when there would only be 3 games to be timed. Or for final confrontations. I will bring the clocks. At chess tournaments players are expected to bring their own clocks... You can get an OK chess clock for $25.
I just think that any timing rules that are based on a chess clock have the potential for abuse. Only three games of the 14 (I think) on day 3 even came close to the 1:15 mark, so with an extension to a normal match play 1:30, it shouldn't be a problem at all.
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Post by Dalton »

Chess clocks work in chess cause the time passes from one player to the other a limited # of times in a game. Try to analyze how many times the time would pass from one player to another in a combat when each player takes multiple actions. It would be ridiculous. It works for online games because a computer can handle it but other than that...

There's a reason Magic has never used them. Just do what other games do and let judges handle it. If a player is playing too slow you tell them to speed up. If they don't you warn them. If they still don't you penalize them. This plus extending the time limit should solve 99.9% of the problems.

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Post by The Franchise »

oh no daltons here, i guess mike french and myself can no longer overexaggerate our greatness at lotr cause it is trumped by dalton lol
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