None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

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Jedicon
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None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Jedicon »

If I play None Shall Pass on Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight, can my opponent deploy Luke Skywalker, Rebel Scout (v) in the same turn?

My initial feeling was no, but GEMP allowed it.

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Gergall
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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Gergall »

The rules for uniqueness dots say it applies to the persona and the title, so it should seem to affect all Lukes, not just one with the exact same title.

I will double check with the rules team before calling it a bug.
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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Hayes »

Based on the AR 3.0, if NSP were only one sentence long, it seems clear that you cannot deploy a different persona of the same character.
AR page 9-1 wrote:Unique, Restricted, & Non-Unique
A card may have dots (•) or diamond symbols () next
to their title. This is a reflection of a card's uniqueness.
If a card is unique (•) or restricted (e.g., •••), the number
of dots restricts: (a) the number of cards of that title that
are allowed on table at any given time, and (b) the
number of cards of that title and persona that may be
played or deployed each turn (even if one is canceled,
returned to hand
, if it has already resolved and been
placed in the Used Pile or Lost Pile, etc).
The second sentence on NSP is not necessary with today's rules, but I think it might have been back in 1998:
The Empire Strikes Back Two-Player Game rule book ©1997 wrote:Unique Card— if a card is ‘unique,’ you cannot have more than one ‘on table’ at any one time during the game; however, multiples can be included in your deck (‘unique’ cards are designated by one dot • preceding the name on the card)
(my unofficial vote is to not overthink the last sentence)
Last edited by Hayes on December 24th, 2020, 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Gergall »

I believe I have found the confirmed intent of the rule. In 2014 it was updated from

"the number of cards of that title that may be played or deployed each turn"
to
"the number of cards of that title and persona that may be played or deployed each turn"
And the reason given for the 2014 update was as follows:
The above addition is being made to prevent players from deploying another version of a unique persona if the deployment of another version has already been attempted that turn.
viewtopic.php?p=868400#p868400

Therefore it seems to be a bug, you should not be allowed to deploy a Luke, have it bounced by None Shall Pass, and then deploy another Luke with a different title that same turn.
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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Gergall »

Now that that's settled, here is a fun related topic...

It says that it limits the number of cards (of that title and persona) that may be "played or deployed". So lets think about Persona Replacement for a moment. Persona replacement is not deployment. But surely it must still count as "playing" the card, right? Any time you bring a card from hand into play, you are playing the card.

Therefore this would indicate that you can't cheaply deploy Premiere Luke Skywalker for 3 and then replace him with the hefty Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight same turn. That would seem to violate these rules, since you'd be deploying a Luke persona and then playing a Luke persona same turn.

I once ruled that it would be legal to do that (also back in 2014) but it seems that ruling may be incorrect. I will discuss this with Rules Team.
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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Hayes »

Unofficial opinion after a cursory flip through the AR:

Deploy(ed) is the term used for noun cards.
Play(ed) is the term used for everything else.
Replace(d) only pertains to character persona replacement or squadrons entering play to distinguish that the action performed is NOT deployment (despite the fact that those are noun cards).

Therefore, I'd argue you can deploy Luke Skywalker and replace him with Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight on the same turn because there neither card was played.

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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Gergall »

Dark Deal, Frozen Assets, and Revolution are all cards that say "deploy" in their own game text, but there are also cards that say "You may not play Dark Deal/Frozen Assets/Revolution".

This leads me to believe that "play" is a universal term. Deploying would be a subset of playing.

This is under Rules Team review.
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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by chriskelly »

Does this change at all if you deploy Jedi Luke, he gets None Shall Passed and then you attempt to reply Luke Jedi Master (not a Rebel)?

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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Gergall »

chriskelly wrote:
December 25th, 2020, 12:23 pm
Does this change at all if you deploy Jedi Luke, he gets None Shall Passed and then you attempt to reply Luke Jedi Master (not a Rebel)?
Same ruling. It's unrelated to None Shall Pass. It's just the uniqueness rules saying that you can't deploy the same unique persona twice in the same turn.

It doesn't have to be a "bounce" card in the example. Another example is you deploy a Luke, an interrupt (or an Infantry Mine or Program Trap) makes Luke lost, and then it's still LS deploy phase and they want to deploy another Luke. It's not allowed.
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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Archmage »

Gergall wrote:
December 24th, 2020, 3:06 pm
I believe I have found the confirmed intent of the rule. In 2014 it was updated from

"the number of cards of that title that may be played or deployed each turn"
to
"the number of cards of that title and persona that may be played or deployed each turn"
And the reason given for the 2014 update was as follows:
The above addition is being made to prevent players from deploying another version of a unique persona if the deployment of another version has already been attempted that turn.
viewtopic.php?p=868400#p868400

Therefore it seems to be a bug, you should not be allowed to deploy a Luke, have it bounced by None Shall Pass, and then deploy another Luke with a different title that same turn.
The explanatory text make the intent clear, but shouldn't ""the number of cards of that title and persona that may be played or deployed each turn" be title and/or persona as AND would imply it has to be the same persona and title?
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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Gergall »

Archmage wrote:
December 29th, 2020, 10:08 pm
The explanatory text make the intent clear, but shouldn't ""the number of cards of that title and persona that may be played or deployed each turn" be title and/or persona as AND would imply it has to be the same persona and title?
Yes, the use of the word "and" is why I originally wasn't sure of the intent, and decided to try to track down more information. I'd like to see it updated, either using your suggestion or something similar.
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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by DS-61-4 »

So is this a definitive answer that LSJK can NOT replace Farmboy Luke on turn 1?

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Re: None Shall Pass & Re-deploying

Post by Gergall »

We have a definite answer on LS deploying one Luke, he gets bounced, and then LS deploying a different Luke in that same turn. It's not allowed.

We have not yet given a definite answer on deploying Farmboy Luke for 3 and then persona replacing him with Jedi Knight Luke in the same turn.
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