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The Franchise
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sos

Post by The Franchise »

so how did the sos stuff work out. did you guys track diff too and would it of been any different in the top 4

i noticed sos on sat with diff on sunday

i know at origins we used diff for both events cause with 10 or fewer its probably better

also in the top 4 what did you guys think about using the higher seed instead of cards in lost pile as tiebreaker for a match?



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Re: sos

Post by retwin316 »

Brad Eier wrote:so how did the sos stuff work out. did you guys track diff too and would it of been any different in the top 4

i noticed sos on sat with diff on sunday

i know at origins we used diff for both events cause with 10 or fewer its probably better

also in the top 4 what did you guys think about using the higher seed instead of cards in lost pile as tiebreaker for a match?
In most cases (fantasy football does it also) I have noticed things go by higher seed, but I am not sure if I exactly like that as the tie breaker.

I think SOS should not be used for events with less than 20 people probably, but maybe that number is too high. Less than 10 should for sure not use it. Also, SOS again might only be needed for top 8's with 20 + people.

Would like to hear others thoughts who have been involved in SOS events.

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Re: sos

Post by JakeA »

Brad Eier wrote:so how did the sos stuff work out. did you guys track diff too and would it of been any different in the top 4

i noticed sos on sat with diff on sunday

i know at origins we used diff for both events cause with 10 or fewer its probably better

also in the top 4 what did you guys think about using the higher seed instead of cards in lost pile as tiebreaker for a match?
SoS worked exactly as it was supposed to on Saturday. The three 4-2 players who played the strongest opponents advanced into the finals. We did not track differential so I couldn't tell you if would have made any difference.

We did use seeding to break the tie in the top four, which is what the tournament guide says to do for a matchplay series after a tournament.

Edit: We came very close to having a perfect tie at the end of the tournament in positions 1-2 and 3-4 during East Nats. I'm not sure if that was a freak result or a consequence of having too many rounds, too few people, and two thirds of the field having a bye.
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Re: sos

Post by fishfleas »

I liked SOS overall I think. I liked that I could just focus on winning, and if it was clear I wasn't going to win late game, then the stress was lifted, and i could just scoop and take a breather between rounds. So instead of a day that could have been brain wracking, I found the day enjoyable and overall alot more relaxing than my last couple bigger events.

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Re: sos

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fishfleas wrote:I liked SOS overall I think. I liked that I could just focus on winning, and if it was clear I wasn't going to win late game, then the stress was lifted, and i could just scoop and take a breather between rounds. So instead of a day that could have been brain wracking, I found the day enjoyable and overall alot more relaxing than my last couple bigger events.
I've had this feeling before in SoS game, and you know what? It's not good. I've given up on a few games in SoS, and I'm sure that SoS will result in people giving up on games too early. I've had plenty of close come-from-behind games that I never thought I was going to have a shot at mid-game. SoS causes players to sometimes give-up in the mid-game after getting beaten down for 20 or something and as a result, two things happen.
1) you and your opponent lose practice at playing late-game scenarios and as a result don't become as good at SW cards
2) People lose all chance at making a miraculous comeback. Sure this doesn't happen often, and most games that people give up on really are over, but every once in a while, you can put together a comeback that just won't happen with people scooping mid-game. And in diff, even if you put together a comeback and come up short you get a reward (not getting blown out on diff) whereas in SoS you could give up halfway through or you could fight back and lose by 2 and it wouldn't matter.
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Re: sos

Post by retwin316 »

spideyguy0 wrote:
fishfleas wrote:I liked SOS overall I think. I liked that I could just focus on winning, and if it was clear I wasn't going to win late game, then the stress was lifted, and i could just scoop and take a breather between rounds. So instead of a day that could have been brain wracking, I found the day enjoyable and overall alot more relaxing than my last couple bigger events.
I've had this feeling before in SoS game, and you know what? It's not good. I've given up on a few games in SoS, and I'm sure that SoS will result in people giving up on games too early. I've had plenty of close come-from-behind games that I never thought I was going to have a shot at mid-game. SoS causes players to sometimes give-up in the mid-game after getting beaten down for 20 or something and as a result, two things happen.
1) you and your opponent lose practice at playing late-game scenarios and as a result don't become as good at SW cards
2) People lose all chance at making a miraculous comeback. Sure this doesn't happen often, and most games that people give up on really are over, but every once in a while, you can put together a comeback that just won't happen with people scooping mid-game. And in diff, even if you put together a comeback and come up short you get a reward (not getting blown out on diff) whereas in SoS you could give up halfway through or you could fight back and lose by 2 and it wouldn't matter.
I for one would never scoop a game if I had any chance at winning, even the slimest of chances.

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Re: sos

Post by fishfleas »

I don't see that as a bad thing.

If people give up mid way through the game when a comeback is still possible, then they probably aren't a good player anyway. Not trying to be mean, but that is probably true. I don't think I'm great but I know enough not to give up too soon. However, I find the end game to be the most troublesome in the whole Diff system. It's just burdomsome for returning players and so forth to see someone just trying to squeeze out every last card in the win against you. I also find this to be alot more fun in the end game when you don't have to worry about how much you win by, and rather can focus on just winning. Another thing is you can see more decks that just plain focus on winning and not by just doing major blow outs or winning by putting down the least amount of cards possible. There are some decks you just see more of when diff is involved. DJP and JP beats are diff staples.

Also, even in SOS diff isn't completely absent. In the playoff they still involve diff in the determining factor of the MP format for the finals.

(Retwin)
I didn't scoop any games I had the chance at winning. Heck I played Herold to a timed loss technically. It was a timed loss by 2 cards at that.

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Re: sos

Post by Halfwingseen »

JakeA wrote:
SoS worked exactly as it was supposed to on Saturday. The three 4-2 players who played the strongest opponents advanced into the finals. We did not track differential so I couldn't tell you if would have made any difference.
I'm just curious what was the SoS scores of the top players (all of them not just the ones on the cuff) is that listed somewhere?
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Re: sos

Post by JakeA »

Strongest opponents = players who finished with the best records during the tournament. The results of each player and the average winning percentage of the people they played are in the updates thread.
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Re: sos

Post by retwin316 »

fishfleas wrote:I don't see that as a bad thing.

If people give up mid way through the game when a comeback is still possible, then they probably aren't a good player anyway. Not trying to be mean, but that is probably true. I don't think I'm great but I know enough not to give up too soon. However, I find the end game to be the most troublesome in the whole Diff system. It's just burdomsome for returning players and so forth to see someone just trying to squeeze out every last card in the win against you. I also find this to be alot more fun in the end game when you don't have to worry about how much you win by, and rather can focus on just winning. Another thing is you can see more decks that just plain focus on winning and not by just doing major blow outs or winning by putting down the least amount of cards possible. There are some decks you just see more of when diff is involved. DJP and JP beats are diff staples.

Also, even in SOS diff isn't completely absent. In the playoff they still involve diff in the determining factor of the MP format for the finals.

(Retwin)
I didn't scoop any games I had the chance at winning. Heck I played Herold to a timed loss technically. It was a timed loss by 2 cards at that.
I also don't run up the score on noobs. I do just enough to win usually, and not try and make it a NPE for them. I am not really interested in making people never want to play again, so I do my best to help them with things, and not try and blow them out too bad.

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Re: sos

Post by Halfwingseen »

JakeA wrote:Strongest opponents = players who finished with the best records during the tournament. The results of each player and the average winning percentage of the people they played are in the updates thread.
thanks!
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Re: sos

Post by fishfleas »

And I'll vouch for that Brian. You are good peoples... :)

I wasn't trying to call anyone out in particular. However, i have noticed that in events, and people admit to doing this in tourney reports just to try to increase their overall diff. It's just the nature of the system.

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Re: sos

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Halfwingseen wrote:
JakeA wrote:Strongest opponents = players who finished with the best records during the tournament. The results of each player and the average winning percentage of the people they played are in the updates thread.
thanks!
Actually, what was Matt jourdan's SoS, it wasn't listed because he was the only 6. It's for something i'm doing for chris to improve SoS.
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Re: sos

Post by fishfleas »

I'm curious at that too...

:)

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Re: sos

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I'll get that and Brian Herold's for you tonight. I didn't calculate them during the event because there were no ties to be broken.
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Re: sos

Post by JakeA »

Brian Herold 10 53.3%
Matt Jourdan 6 60%
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Re: sos

Post by puck71 »

spideyguy0 wrote:I'm sure that SoS will result in people giving up on games too early.
If people concede games too early, that's their fault, not the fault of the system. Speaking for my games, they were only conceded (one way or the other) when it was toward the end of time and/or it was 100% clear it was going to be over in 2-3 turns. Nobody conceded "early" - if they do that's their choice and they shouldn't blame anyone or anything but themselves for making that choice.
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Re: sos

Post by fishfleas »

Not to mention people still scoop in Diff games too.

SOS just takes the pressure off things.

However, I think it's best reserved for AT MINIMUM 9-10 people. Anything less and it's probably wiser just to do Diff.

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Re: sos

Post by The Franchise »

fishfleas wrote:Not to mention people still scoop in Diff games too.

SOS just takes the pressure off things.

However, I think it's best reserved for AT MINIMUM 9-10 people. Anything less and it's probably wiser just to do Diff.

if you scoop in diff games, you are a cheater*


* unless you are reid smith and agelts doesnt know the rules. then you get a loss by 30ish and still make the finalz

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Re: sos

Post by PapaLorax »

Brad Eier wrote:
fishfleas wrote:Not to mention people still scoop in Diff games too.

SOS just takes the pressure off things.

However, I think it's best reserved for AT MINIMUM 9-10 people. Anything less and it's probably wiser just to do Diff.

if you scoop in diff games, you are a cheater*


* unless you are reid smith and agelts doesnt know the rules. then you get a loss by 30ish and still make the finalz
Scooping may be against the rules -- but essentially giving up certainly happens and the impact to a diff event can be huge.

Also I don't believe the idea that SOS doesn't work for 8 man events. IMO the key is that diff is broken and a terrible system. Therefore, for all circumstances SOS is better.
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