Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai DS

Hyatt Regency on Capitol Hill
400 New Jersey Ave NW
Washington, DC 20001
rhendon
Member
Posts: 10617
Joined: August 24th, 2010, 12:58 pm

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by rhendon »

agnos wrote:
Kevbozzz wrote:It's really lame that a bunch of people had to put bad cards in their deck because of something so trivial. If a decklist error is so obvious (Dark Time non-v? Seriously?) the deck LIST should be changed, not the deck. Using TD's discretion, of course. And yes I trust TD's enough to make that judgement call.
As much as I hate to say this, considering the size of the community etc etc it's Kevin's solution is best.
Not to bash anyone, but it does seem like such a silly mistake. Coming from the MTG world, I guess I was trained to fill these out correctly with fear of DQ or getting a basic site to replace it with, depending on the level of the event.



User avatar
imrahil327
Tournament Advocate
Posts: 30699
Joined: July 3rd, 2006, 3:51 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by imrahil327 »

I can see that perspective, but I also know our community. We aren't Magic, which isn't to say we should be unprofessional, but we travel from these various places across the country to play a dead card game with slips of paper in it for ~1/10th of the $ that MTG gives out, if that. AND I know that the top players would rather beat each other straight up than win because their opponent had to play a useless card in their deck rather than the card they intended.
Image
Hunter wrote:Sebulba's W-L record is like...Always and 1. Tebow's is nowhere near that percentage.
allstarz97, about M:TG wrote:I feel like Michael Jordan playing baseball.

User avatar
JediJer
Administrator
Posts: 26017
Joined: December 3rd, 2002, 1:42 am
Location: Utah

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by JediJer »

yeah, if the error is with the list (forgetting to mark or accidentally marking the v) you should just fix the list, not the deck. If the error is with the deck (The Emperor v in your deck instead of The Emperor's Reach on your list) then you fix the deck to match the list.

Deck list errors are mostly because people fill out their decklists in a rush at the last minute. It's not because of a problem with the deck or trying to cheat (in most cases at least), it's simply a typo error on the list.

If you have a teammate or someone you trust to see your list before the event, you should have them double check your list/deck for you. Find that total scrub that already has his decklist turned in (someone like me for example) and have him double check it for you. Even if he knows every card in your deck, you'll still probably beat him.

User avatar
darkjediknight11
Communications Advocate
Posts: 22850
Joined: April 17th, 2005, 5:26 pm
Location: Chicago
GEMP Username: djk11

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by darkjediknight11 »

imrahil327 wrote:I can see that perspective, but I also know our community. We aren't Magic, which isn't to say we should be unprofessional, but we travel from these various places across the country to play a dead card game with slips of paper in it for ~1/10th of the $ that MTG gives out, if that. AND I know that the top players would rather beat each other straight up than win because their opponent had to play a useless card in their deck rather than the card they intended.
heh, you reminded me of this thread

and kyle's strong prediction.

rhendon
Member
Posts: 10617
Joined: August 24th, 2010, 12:58 pm

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by rhendon »

imrahil327 wrote:I can see that perspective, but I also know our community. We aren't Magic, which isn't to say we should be unprofessional, but we travel from these various places across the country to play a dead card game with slips of paper in it for ~1/10th of the $ that MTG gives out, if that. AND I know that the top players would rather beat each other straight up than win because their opponent had to play a useless card in their deck rather than the card they intended.
I didn't meant to imply anything with the MTG part. I was just mentioning why it seems so silly to me. For past MTG lists, I would spend an hour or so doing my decklist and checking it multiple times. I've definitely relaxed on that for Star Wars, but I still double/triple check it and usually try to fill it out in some sort of order so I can verify as I go.

I definitely don't want to see someone get DQ'd over it. If each person spent 5 more minutes on it, then it would happen less and less.

User avatar
fishfleas
Member
Posts: 4128
Joined: April 7th, 2005, 10:53 am
Location: Indiana, Marion
Contact:

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by fishfleas »

I think Kevin's idea is best. We should be trying to encourage a friendly open environment. I think the TDs of the few events that require lists would be honest enough to rule correctly on errors.

The only sticky part is where to draw the line on what is a list error and what is a deck error. Also not saying someone anymore would do this, but in some cases you could switch a card out in between games. For example 4lom with or without slip could be better against certain matchups and that could just end up looking like a list error.

User avatar
Hunter
World Champion
World Champion
Posts: 14816
Joined: February 10th, 2003, 3:27 am

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Hunter »

fishfleas wrote:I think Kevin's idea is best.
I think Kevin's idea is how things already are. I don't believe there is any hard & fast rule in the Tournament Guide about how to handle decklist errors. So the decision to force the players to use the non-V version of the card, if they neglected to mark it as virtual, was already made "at the TD's discretion"...yes?

The TD could have just checked the box and imposed no penalty. The TD could do what was actually done. The TD could have given them a game loss or a full DQ or whatever. So if Kevin says "I trust TD's enough to make that judgement call" then nothing needs to be changed.
mikefrench wrote:i'm an idiot who can't control himself.

User avatar
puck71
Member
Posts: 12897
Joined: February 17th, 2008, 8:59 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN
GEMP Username: puck71

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by puck71 »

SWCCGPT wrote:
imrahil327 wrote:Yes they did, but since we haven't seen the Day 3 deck lists yet, he might have changed it for day 3.
I mean, didn't the players that qualified for day 3, get their decklists checked on day 2?
checked after qualifying for day 3? for one thing it was like 1130 at that point and what would happen if errors were found? day 3 lists are all checked for top 8 but day 2 checks are done randomly throughout the day.
John Anderson
Proofing, Tournament Committee, GEMP Team

Kevbozzz
World Champion
World Champion
Posts: 5257
Joined: August 23rd, 2007, 3:13 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Kevbozzz »

Hunter wrote:
fishfleas wrote:I think Kevin's idea is best.
I think Kevin's idea is how things already are. I don't believe there is any hard & fast rule in the Tournament Guide about how to handle decklist errors. So the decision to force the players to use the non-V version of the card, if they neglected to mark it as virtual, was already made "at the TD's discretion"...yes?

The TD could have just checked the box and imposed no penalty. The TD could do what was actually done. The TD could have given them a game loss or a full DQ or whatever. So if Kevin says "I trust TD's enough to make that judgement call" then nothing needs to be changed.
But TDs seem to think the "proper" response to a decklist error is to change the deck, and never the list. The current "judgement call" seems to be whether or not to just ignore the rule (which is what happens in most non-worlds events).

I think a better approach is to allow a td the leeway to look at a deck and say "he obviously meant Visage Of The Emperor x3, not the star destroyer Visage x3 in that Huntdown deck." (I think I saw this exact error on one of the top 8's day 2 lists, but I don't think it was caught.) If there is a grey area (which Imperial Decree was that supposed to be?) the TD would have to do his best to make the right call. If Scrambled Tranny, Evac Control and Civil Disorder magically show up in a light deck before someone plays against DS Senate, then maybe drastic measures need to be taken.

For big events like worlds I'm usually pretty careful and I don't think a deck check has ever hurt me directly. But 3 of the best players I played against at worlds (Chu, Baroni, Nelson) were forced to make deck changes that hurt their decks. That cheapens my victory and leaves me with a troubling feeling that I wasn't up against the best they had to offer, which is the whole reason I compete with high-caliber players in the first place. The system used at worlds was imperfect and should be looked at. We should never be forcing players to ruin their decks because of obvious typos. That's all I'm saying.
Check out ShanCast, my SWCCG podcast! Past episodes can be found at www.spreaker.com/user/shancast, or via the Spreaker app (search for #SWCCG).

ImageImageImage
3MW0J8 wrote:If DBO comes back again I swear I will quit for good.
DDM wrote:All hail Kevin Shannon!! :rimshot
3MW0J8 wrote:holy balls KSBOOTMFY
Schele wrote:I guess you're not as bad as I thought you were.

User avatar
Throdo
Member
Posts: 6999
Joined: February 18th, 2007, 8:08 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Throdo »

I was honestly surprised that players had to play the sub-par cards when deckchecks found errors.

User avatar
kcaton
LS Region: Coruscant
LS Region: Coruscant
Posts: 753
Joined: January 3rd, 2008, 12:18 am
Location: Norristown, PA
Contact:

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by kcaton »

Standard CCG TD procedures say the deck needed to be made to match the list and I felt terrible about the card changes. In Chu's case it was not marking a V on the card; in Aaron's case its was a different card (a playable one in the deck, I was told). If the SW community has enough trust in its members to do so, I think leaving it at TD discretion (so V could just have been checked in Chu's case, etc.) would be great.

Deck checks were done randomly within the top 2 records in the latter half of the tourney (1 of each of the 2 top records per game, randomly pulled from the command cards before pairings were announced). We were so pressed for time within each round we couldn't do more :(

I also had to give someone a game loss in the team tourney for a completely irreparable game state, I felt terrible about that too :( Guy shuffled his hand into his deck by accident...

Kevbozzz
World Champion
World Champion
Posts: 5257
Joined: August 23rd, 2007, 3:13 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Kevbozzz »

Kim you guys did an amazing job, and appropriately stuck to the rules. I just think the rules should now be tweaked.

For the record, I think Aaron should have been forced to change the card in his deck (which is what happened).
Check out ShanCast, my SWCCG podcast! Past episodes can be found at www.spreaker.com/user/shancast, or via the Spreaker app (search for #SWCCG).

ImageImageImage
3MW0J8 wrote:If DBO comes back again I swear I will quit for good.
DDM wrote:All hail Kevin Shannon!! :rimshot
3MW0J8 wrote:holy balls KSBOOTMFY
Schele wrote:I guess you're not as bad as I thought you were.

Karrdeshark
World Champion
World Champion
Posts: 2604
Joined: February 1st, 2003, 3:50 pm

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Karrdeshark »

TD's discretion is probably best. I remember that Harpster was forced to play a Blockade Flagship at worlds a couple years ago because he forgot to write "Bridge", which meant he had to play a card he could not legally play in his AOBS. Even though the card did indeed exist, it was quite obvious which card he actually meant. Again, no problem with the way it was enforced, as that was consistent with how it's been done, it would just be good to have some leeway. If there's a reasonable doubt (The Emperor versus Reach, Arica v versus Arica, etc.), then make it match the list.
Image

User avatar
mr007agent
Member
Posts: 6853
Joined: October 30th, 2002, 1:43 pm
Location: South Houston, TX
Contact:

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by mr007agent »

Kevbozzz wrote:That cheapens my victory and leaves me with a troubling feeling that I wasn't up against the best they had to offer, which is the whole reason I compete with high-caliber players in the first place.
Just like your mom.
Michael Richards
Rogue 84
PC Volunteer
Shadow 43 - Dantooine Flight Leader
http://omega.uta.edu/~mhr7680/dantooineswccg.html
-007-
ImageImage

User avatar
Airdog2003
Member
Posts: 6697
Joined: July 31st, 2007, 2:49 pm
Location: I am where I am...

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Airdog2003 »

Kevbozzz wrote: For the record, I think Aaron should have been forced to change the card in his deck (which is what happened).
x2. I think you guys did great as well, Kim. I agreed with your decision to make me change the card b/c it was MY mistake and *I* should have done a better job double checking my decklist since that's *my* responsibility as a player at a major event.

It certainly sucked to have to change out the card (and it did end up stinging a bit when I opening handed it my next two games) but I think it was the right call given the situation.
Kevbozzz wrote: And he rose out of the ashes of scrubdom, like a mighty Phoenix.
Aaron Nelson
Star Wars is fun!
Props to my Lakers - 2009 & 2010 World Champions...suck it Boston!


Image Image

Bib Fortuna
DS Region: Endor
DS Region: Endor
Posts: 1802
Joined: October 31st, 2002, 2:58 am
Location: Springfield, OR
Contact:

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Bib Fortuna »

One thing I noticed about the game summary:
Bill takes the turn as the game becomes more stagnant. The only characters on table are Vader and Emperor at the 3/2 site who can’t drain because of Leia Rebel Princess.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but HDv would be on the 7-side at this point, because Leia is at a non-battleground, so Leia wouldn't be able to cancel the 3/2 drain.
They fly now!

Kevbozzz
World Champion
World Champion
Posts: 5257
Joined: August 23rd, 2007, 3:13 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Kevbozzz »

Bib Fortuna wrote:One thing I noticed about the game summary:
Bill takes the turn as the game becomes more stagnant. The only characters on table are Vader and Emperor at the 3/2 site who can’t drain because of Leia Rebel Princess.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but HDv would be on the 7-side at this point, because Leia is at a non-battleground, so Leia wouldn't be able to cancel the 3/2 drain.
You forget that the best players have no idea what half their cards do.
Check out ShanCast, my SWCCG podcast! Past episodes can be found at www.spreaker.com/user/shancast, or via the Spreaker app (search for #SWCCG).

ImageImageImage
3MW0J8 wrote:If DBO comes back again I swear I will quit for good.
DDM wrote:All hail Kevin Shannon!! :rimshot
3MW0J8 wrote:holy balls KSBOOTMFY
Schele wrote:I guess you're not as bad as I thought you were.

Bib Fortuna
DS Region: Endor
DS Region: Endor
Posts: 1802
Joined: October 31st, 2002, 2:58 am
Location: Springfield, OR
Contact:

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Bib Fortuna »

So by extension, that would make me the worst player in the game?
They fly now!

Kevbozzz
World Champion
World Champion
Posts: 5257
Joined: August 23rd, 2007, 3:13 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by Kevbozzz »

Bib Fortuna wrote:So by extension, that would make me the worst player in the game?
Yes that is the general consensus.
Check out ShanCast, my SWCCG podcast! Past episodes can be found at www.spreaker.com/user/shancast, or via the Spreaker app (search for #SWCCG).

ImageImageImage
3MW0J8 wrote:If DBO comes back again I swear I will quit for good.
DDM wrote:All hail Kevin Shannon!! :rimshot
3MW0J8 wrote:holy balls KSBOOTMFY
Schele wrote:I guess you're not as bad as I thought you were.

User avatar
quesosauce37
LS Region: Tatooine
LS Region: Tatooine
Posts: 13222
Joined: November 8th, 2007, 6:16 pm
Location: North Denver
GEMP Username: quesosauce

Re: Round 6 Feaure Match: Taco Bill Kafer LS vs Justin Desai

Post by quesosauce37 »

Kevbozzz wrote:
Bib Fortuna wrote:So by extension, that would make me the worst player in the game?
Yes that is the general consensus.
KSBOOTD
Jerry H

Image

Image Image

Post Reply

Return to “2011 World Championships - Washington D.C. - August 11-14”