Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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Gergall wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 1:51 pm
Jeffrey Epstein Death: 2 Guards Slept Through Checks and Falsified Records
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/nyre ... icers.html

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I also get sleepy sometimes when I'm guarding the most important prisoner in the United States
Should ask about those guard's salaries. I bet they didn't go up because they had a high profile prisoner. This is par for the course. Worse case scenario for them they get fired, maybe go on unemployment while they find a new job that isn't unimaginably horrible.

I know it is just a dumb reddit quip for upvotes but people who talk * on COs have literally no idea wtf they're talking about.


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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

Post by Gergall »

vhstapes wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 2:17 pm
people who talk * on COs have literally no idea wtf they're talking about.
Please educate me on why not only is it okay for COs to sleep when they are supposed to be working, it's also wrong to talk * about them for doing so.
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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Bro COs are mostly academy dropouts/expellees and we know how low the bar is to be a cop, so.. fight me
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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vhstapes wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 2:17 pm
Should ask about those guard's salaries. I bet they didn't go up because they had a high profile prisoner.
And if they aren't experiencing a pay increase for guarding a high-profile prisoner, then they can't be expected to do their jobs? lol

Again, the best (only?) excuse for the gross negligence would be if negligence were encouraged in this particular instance, with this particular prisoner. And it already feels to me like that was the plan all along, since checks at 30-minute intervals don't strike me as adequate. Constant video surveillance seems like a no-brainer, when the national interest was this high.

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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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3MW0J8 wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 2:56 pm
Bro COs are mostly academy dropouts/expellees and we know how low the bar is to be a cop, so.. fight me
reid is absolutely correct

these are not well paid jobs, they're often aren't union jobs

so like, i totally agree with all of you idealists out there saying "but people should be held accountable at all levels" - yes, obviously it's unacceptable that they fell asleep, obviously it's unacceptable that they allowed epstein to hang himself, obviously it's unacceptable that blah blah blah

but it's been unacceptable for YEARS and YEARS. epstein isn't why it's unacceptable, he's just the reason some of you found out that the outcomes this system produces are unacceptable.

it's also amazing to me that someone thinks they were gonna pay out the OT that would be needed to have constant video surveillance. like, learn ANYTHING useful about our criminal justice system before you post again, please
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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Gergall wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 2:47 pm
vhstapes wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 2:17 pm
people who talk * on COs have literally no idea wtf they're talking about.
Please educate me on why not only is it okay for COs to sleep when they are supposed to be working, it's also wrong to talk * about them for doing so.
because they're not why the system is broken - they're just as much victims of the system as they are problems perpetuating the system. when you pay someone as little as $13/hr (yes i looked this up, that's starting wages for prison guards in louisiana - i knew it was awful because i remembered reading this story), don't give them adequate training or equipment, and then give them a ton of leeway to be as capricious or judicious as they want with the rules, you don't get good outcomes, and you actively harm those employees on a moral level.
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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Fwiw, I read that the guards who were on Epstein duty were all on OT because the whole facility is understaffed and overworked. Which makes sense to me cause it's usually cheaper to just give existing precarious workers OT hours than it is to just hire and train the amount of workers you actually need.

Idk, I'm of two minds about prison guards in general. Like yeah they're also part of an unethical and dehumanizing system and so they share some level of complicity in it (even if it's dehumanizing to them as well, just in a different way). But at the same time they're still just workers who are just trying to earn a wage to survive and I'd assume most are not really aware of the full weight of what they're doing.
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

Post by mikefrench »

BrenDerlin wrote:
August 15th, 2019, 6:38 pm
Fwiw, I read that the guards who were on Epstein duty were all on OT because the whole facility is understaffed and overworked. Which makes sense to me cause it's usually cheaper to just give existing precarious workers OT hours than it is to just hire and train the amount of workers you actually need.

Idk, I'm of two minds about prison guards in general. Like yeah they're also part of an unethical and dehumanizing system and so they share some level of complicity in it (even if it's dehumanizing to them as well, just in a different way). But at the same time they're still just workers who are just trying to earn a wage to survive and I'd assume most are not really aware of the full weight of what they're doing.
totally agree with this post but the point i was making was not that they wouldn't pay out OT at all, but that the amount of OT for 24 hour round the clock surveillance on one prisoner is laughable. and btw it's not a guarantee that the guy can't be killed - maybe some other prisoners get bribed to start a fight, then everyone on duty responds to lock it down and there's no one watching the 24 hour surveillance feed
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

Post by The Franchise »

This all is just pointing to private prisons as the answer, isnt it?

Also just on prison in general, idk why it seems to be basically accepted and folks are kinda sorta okay (or at least are not particularly outraged about) prisoners sexually assaulting other prisoners. I mean, idk how often this actually happens, and its probably exaggerated on tv shows, but any instances over zero is too many.

Also- maybe going too far down the rabbit hole here, but as a society if we dont give rapists a life sentence (at a minimum), and we let them back out in the world after some amount of time, isnt that in some respect an admission by society that they are kind of okay with people committing the crime? Like not that people actively endorse it, but the fact we let these people back into our communities says something imo

Also can we get mike french to debate ben shapiro on literally anything, plz

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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

Post by Cam Solusar »

Some potential topics for the French/Shapiro debate:

1) boxers or briefs?
2) toilet paper roll mounted over or under?
3) TLJ good or bad?
4) America's Best hamburger?
5) Beatles overrated?

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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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Ben hates TFA more than TLJ. One of the most indefensible positions ive seen him take.
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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But in his defense he does hate them both. Tweet from last year:

https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/1 ... 41?lang=en
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I can't believe I'm agreeing with Ben Shapiro, but...that's pretty much how I would list them. Might give TFA it's own slot at #7 and make #8 the garbage catch-all for TPM, AOTC, and TLJ.
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

Post by mikefrench »

The Franchise wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 9:43 am
This all is just pointing to private prisons as the answer, isnt it?

Also just on prison in general, idk why it seems to be basically accepted and folks are kinda sorta okay (or at least are not particularly outraged about) prisoners sexually assaulting other prisoners. I mean, idk how often this actually happens, and its probably exaggerated on tv shows, but any instances over zero is too many.

Also- maybe going too far down the rabbit hole here, but as a society if we dont give rapists a life sentence (at a minimum), and we let them back out in the world after some amount of time, isnt that in some respect an admission by society that they are kind of okay with people committing the crime? Like not that people actively endorse it, but the fact we let these people back into our communities says something imo

Also can we get mike french to debate ben shapiro on literally anything, plz
our prisons are built for specific outcomes. we could design the system to get different outcomes, but we don't. the outcomes we decided long ago that we wanted was, we wanted prisons to be places where people were punished just for the sake of being punished. this is called retributive justice. you did a bad thing, you get punished - you live in an uncomfortable place, you lose basic freedoms and privileges, you are seen by the rest of society as a pariah. and then we say, once you serve your time, you've paid your debt to society. so if a rapist goes into this prison for 10 years or whatever (some plead down and get much much less ofc which is a problem in and of itself), they spend a terrible terrible 10 years and then are released back into society definitely not learning any lessons about how to treat other humans. their own bodily autonomy is taken away by the system, possibly by other inmates like you mention, they're not taught how to restrain their own urges, they're just released and put on a sex predator list and have to go door to door telling their neighbors that they're a sex criminal.

we could instead view prisons as a place where we fix the problems that caused the person to commit a crime. this would probably require more resources, but would get much better outcomes. so if a rapist goes into this prison system, they'd be taught about bodily autonomy, be shown respect and dignity on an individual level, get cognitive behavioral therapy to retrain their learned behaviors, taught how to restrain their urges, and so on. this is basically called rehabilitative justice. there's also other theories of justice, like restorative justice which focuses on the relationships between the victim and the perpetrator, the harm caused by the crime, and puts a high value on restitution.
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Re: Cooleo questions The

Post by mikefrench »

Cam Solusar wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 10:49 am
Some potential topics for the French/Shapiro debate:

1) boxers or briefs?
2) toilet paper roll mounted over or under?
3) TLJ good or bad?
4) America's Best hamburger?
5) Beatles overrated?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
topics i would want to talk about with shapiro

1) labor markets and capitalism
2) enlightenment/western values and colonialism
3) do transgender humans exist
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Re: Cooleo questions The

Post by quickdraw3457 »

mikefrench wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 12:46 pm
Cam Solusar wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 10:49 am
Some potential topics for the French/Shapiro debate:

1) boxers or briefs?
2) toilet paper roll mounted over or under?
3) TLJ good or bad?
4) America's Best hamburger?
5) Beatles overrated?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
topics i would want to talk about with shapiro

1) labor markets and capitalism
2) enlightenment/western values and colonialism
3) do transgender humans exist
I vote for cam's topics.
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

Post by Aglets »

Couple of questions come to mind.

1. Mike, how many rapists do you think would have 2nd thoughts and stop their behavior if someone had only explained to them that rape is morally wrong?

2. How about people that steal?

3. How about murder / violent criminals? Do they also just need months or more of "cognitive therapy?"

4. Do you think Richard Spencer could be taught that white supremacy is wrong?

Thanks for your time.
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

Post by JarJarDrinks »

mikefrench wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 12:43 pm
they're just released and put on a sex predator list and have to go door to door telling their neighbors that they're a sex criminal.
This is something I'm completely against btw. You're either a danger to society or ur not.
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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The Franchise wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 9:43 am
Also- maybe going too far down the rabbit hole here, but as a society if we dont give rapists a life sentence (at a minimum), and we let them back out in the world after some amount of time, isnt that in some respect an admission by society that they are kind of okay with people committing the crime? Like not that people actively endorse it, but the fact we let these people back into our communities says something imo
i felt like this deserved more of a response, because it is a really good point. to be fair to our current system, it's not 100% about retribution, it's also about public safety, and we determined that some people are just too dangerous to be allowed to be in public. but we generally reserve that for murderers - we just don't view rape as that dangerous of a crime.

using the washington state sentencing matrix, i grabbed first degree rape and had a defendant with no prior convictions, and the sentencing range was 93-123 months. that's 7 to 10 years, roughly. more prior convictions increases that, sometimes very steeply (depending on how serious/violent the prior convictions were). for first degree murder, again a defendant with no prior convictions, the sentencing range is 240-320 months, or 20-26 years. (second degree murder was 123-220 months, for reference).

so this will fluctuate based on state of course, but generally speaking we just do not view rape as nearly as serious as murder. personally i don't think that's the main problem here - i think we just don't try to rehabilitate rapists, we don't try nearly hard enough to solve rapes, we don't teach bodily autonomy as a primary value to young children, there's LOTS of low-hanging fruit here.
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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

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Re: Cooleo questions The "Official Story"

Post by JarJarDrinks »

mikefrench wrote:
August 16th, 2019, 12:43 pm
we could instead view prisons as a place where we fix the problems that caused the person to commit a crime. this would probably require more resources, but would get much better outcomes.
How much better and better for whom?

You're gonna have to convince me that spending all these additional resources that could go towards any number of other things is worthwhile. How much time/effort/money should we spend fixing these broken humans? I'd much rather spend those resources on those of us trying to better society (or at least not actively damaging it).
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October 2nd, 2019, 12:12 pm
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