The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by mingtown »

AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
December 21st, 2020, 5:17 pm
This seems to be a braindead easy answer to me, having just watched the episode finally for the first time. You defeat the person who has the Darksaber in a duel and you become the rightful owner. Doesn't matter whether you want it or not, even if you refuse it, no one else has rights to it according to the warrior culture Terms and Conditions.
Alright alright, you win.

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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by hanotsri »

Overall, I loved the finale and I really love this show.

I've seen a number of criticisms levied against the finale both here and on various other forums and subreddits. Frankly, none of the things raised as issues in these criticisms have bothered me in the slightest.

I don't care that Luke was another Deus Ex Machina or that the show has relied on them a few times. As long as they make sense within the story they're trying to tell I am fine with it. Furthermore, I think in a sense they're used in a way to propel forward the idea that as long as Grogu is with Din Djarin, his life will be in danger. Grogu will always be in both physical and spiritual danger while he's with Din Djarin and only a Jedi is capable of alleviating those problems. At some point either Din (or some other entity) will not be able to save the child from physical harm. At some point, without training, the darkness within Grogu could get the best of him.

If there is anything that Luke's entrance and conversation suggests is that he is exactly what Grogu needs to have a chance. I think the show did a remarkable job of keeping that focus. It's precisely why the oft criticized lack of introduction or reaction to Luke by Din and company is not something I even thought about as being problematic. Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau know exactly what they're doing in this scene. They're setting up Luke to be something to behold. The hero that many fans were hoping to see in The Last Jedi and didn't (well, not in the way they expected anyway). I am not among those fans, but I loved his appearance regardless. When all else seems lost and the only thing on Din's mind is protecting Grogu, the response to Luke is precisely what I would expect.

The first reaction we get is from Cara Dune who sarcastically questions the value of this single X-Wing. Next, Grogu begins to connect with and sense the presence of another being like him. Fennec Shand is confused as to why the droids would stop. Moff Gideon looks like fearful of the unknown that has just arrived. Bo-Katan exclaims with a little fear and a little hope "A Jedi?!" Moff Gideon now realizing this could be his end tries to go out on his own terms and is knocked out. After blocking Gideon's fire, Din watches Grogu as he turns his attention / reaches out to this Jedi. They all watch as this Jedi eliminates this enemy that was all but certain to destroy them. Grogu clearly trusts this Jedi (and Din trusts Grogu) and points to the doors to be opened. A healthy amount of fear of the Jedi is evident (especially because one hasn't been seen in so long). At that moment there is only one thing that matters and that's Grogu's safety. It's clear he can connect to and trusts the Jedi. It's clear this Jedi can protect Grogu. After all that has transpired, Din Djarin and company don't need to know anything more or anything less. There doesn't need to be any pleasantries. The child is safe. That's it.

I have no doubt that Din Djarin will likely learn the name of the Jedi (perhaps from Cara Dune) and will reunite at some point with Grogu. But at that moment, I simply don't think it mattered. Not to me anyway.

Regarding, the Darksaber situation. I think it all tracks pretty well with established lore. So much so that Sabine's mother actually asked her where she got the Darksaber. When Sabine replied that she found it in Maul's lair and not by besting him in combat, her mother said "then you have no claim to it." It's clear that there is a long-standing tradition that one can only make claim on the Darksaber if one defeats the previous wielder. Sabine had no intent of using it to rule Mandalore herself and by the time she passed it onto Bo-Katan, Maul (it's true owner at that point) was dead. Bo-Katan probably had the best claim to Mandalore at that time.

My guess is part of why Bo-Katan is taking a hard stance on this is because SHE WAS bested in combat by Moff Gideon during the Imperial response to the "Heroes of Mandalore" episodes in Season 04 of Rebels (a story we haven't seen yet) and she feels like the only way she can legitimately reclaim it is by adhering to said tradition.

I really enjoyed the episode and it did nothing but make me more excited for the future. Going forward, I don't really want The Mandalorian to be about bounty hunting or anything like that. I want it to be about what it means to be a Mandalorian and reclaiming the planet. But I also hope there is a check-in on Grogu from time-to-time. I am really looking forward to all of the other shows that will connect into this particular part of the timeline.

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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

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Did anyone else feel they should have called the "Dark Troopers" "Death Troopers" instead?
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

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fungineer wrote:
December 22nd, 2020, 5:40 pm
Did anyone else feel they should have called the "Dark Troopers" "Death Troopers" instead?
Considering Death Troopers are an entirely different thing...no

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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

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hanotsri wrote:
December 22nd, 2020, 5:57 pm
fungineer wrote:
December 22nd, 2020, 5:40 pm
Did anyone else feel they should have called the "Dark Troopers" "Death Troopers" instead?
Considering Death Troopers are an entirely different thing...no
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by Gergall »

Pershing said something about how replacing the human with a droid was the final step in a long line of improvements. So actually yeah I could see how these could have been called a continuation of the line of Death Troopers.

As an analogy the T-800 and the T-1000 are very different from each other but they are both Terminators.
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by hanotsri »

Gergall wrote:
December 22nd, 2020, 6:55 pm
Pershing said something about how replacing the human with a droid was the final step in a long line of improvements. So actually yeah I could see how these could have been called a continuation of the line of Death Troopers.

As an analogy the T-800 and the T-1000 are very different from each other but they are both Terminators.
Possibly, though Gideon did have actual Death Troopers at the end of last season.

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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by Gergall »

hanotsri wrote:
December 22nd, 2020, 7:44 pm
Gergall wrote:
December 22nd, 2020, 6:55 pm
Pershing said something about how replacing the human with a droid was the final step in a long line of improvements. So actually yeah I could see how these could have been called a continuation of the line of Death Troopers.

As an analogy the T-800 and the T-1000 are very different from each other but they are both Terminators.
Possibly, though Gideon did have actual Death Troopers at the end of last season.
To me that is an even stronger argument to call these droids a continuation of Death Troopers. He had them before and now he has version 2.0

Of course they didn't do that but I think fungineer raised a very good point.
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by AdmiralMotti89 »

fungineer wrote:
December 22nd, 2020, 5:40 pm
Did anyone else feel they should have called the "Dark Troopers" "Death Troopers" instead?
Dark Troopers are pretty well established in the older video games and I guess they needed a soft reboot. Dark Forces and "Classic" Battlefront actually did a decent job of weaving them together (and it's sort of creepy/cool that the Battlefront ones were a retrofitting of aged clones). Mandalorian's Dark Troopers actually look a lot like Phase III from Dark Forces.
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by arebelspy »

Finally watched the whole Mandalorian.

Thanks for putting the dates in OP, Gergall. Then I could scroll down in thread after watching one and stop when I got to the date of the next one.

Fett's paint job looked too flat (if you're familiar with flat vs glossy when choosing paint).. no shine. Made it not look metallic.

Darksaber is just the elder wand.

I don't want to see fett sitting on a throne and idk why he'd want to. He should be out doing the dirty work, not commanding people to do it.

Overall, very good show. None of the complaints above really bothered me much. Show is getting repetitive though.

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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by Corran »

arebelspy wrote:
December 30th, 2020, 1:08 am
Finally watched the whole Mandalorian.

Thanks for putting the dates in OP, Gergall. Then I could scroll down in thread after watching one and stop when I got to the date of the next one.

Fett's paint job looked too flat (if you're familiar with flat vs glossy when choosing paint).. no shine. Made it not look metallic.

Darksaber is just the elder wand.

I don't want to see fett sitting on a throne and idk why he'd want to. He should be out doing the dirty work, not commanding people to do it.

Overall, very good show. None of the complaints above really bothered me much. Show is getting repetitive though.
Agree on the redesign of Fett's costume. It looks a little too much like hockey pads for my taste. There are certainly parallels between the Darksaber and the Elder Wand, but it's not like JK was the first person to create a powerful weapon that must be won in a duel and moves from generation to generation or whatever(I'm blanking on other examples, but it feels like something that's been around).
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

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Forget everything you know about the Elder Wand and Darksaber.

Bo-Katan was ruler of Mandalore. She was defeated by Gideon who then purged most of her planet. She felt she had to win a rematch to restore the honor and respect of her people. (Also, it's not just her imagining it - her people actually believe in that too).

Bo-Katan teams up with this lone "Mando" dude who goes and defeats Gideon for her, takes a trophy off him, and gives it to her. "Here," Mando says. "This will prove to your people that you defeated Gideon and won your honor back."
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

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Gergall wrote:
December 30th, 2020, 11:30 am
She was defeated by Gideon who then purged most of her planet.
citation?
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

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darkjediknight11 wrote:
December 30th, 2020, 11:32 am
Gergall wrote:
December 30th, 2020, 11:30 am
She was defeated by Gideon who then purged most of her planet.
citation?
Same episode when Fett says most of Mandalore has been glassed by the Empire?
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by darkjediknight11 »

ok, i don't remember any specifics being mentioned about how gideon got the darksaber, but i'll pay attention during my rewatch
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by SmallDarkLines »

Gergall wrote:
December 30th, 2020, 11:34 am
darkjediknight11 wrote:
December 30th, 2020, 11:32 am
Gergall wrote:
December 30th, 2020, 11:30 am
She was defeated by Gideon who then purged most of her planet.
citation?
Same episode when Fett says most of Mandalore has been glassed by the Empire?
Fairly sure her defeat isn’t mentioned - it’s still left in the air as to how Gideon got the saber (which may be explained in one of the upcoming stories).
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by arebelspy »

Man, how do you guys have time for REwatches??

I'd just trust Gergall. He's like the most town person on the forums.

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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by hanotsri »

We haven't had anything concrete that says specifically that Gideon defeated Bo-Katan Kryze to get the Darksaber , but I think it's heavily implied in both "The Heiress" and "The Rescue."

All we know is that during the purge, Gideon was an ISB agent. The purge and "The Night of a Thousand Tears" seems to be the Imperial response to the events of the Star Wars Rebels Season 4 arc "The Heroes of Mandalore" which is where Sabine gives the Darksaber to Bo-Katan. This arc takes place after the last owner of the Darksaber (Maul) had been killed. So unless, the Darksaber was given to Obi-Wan, there wasn't really anyone to defeat to claim the Darksaber.

It's entirely possible during this purge, Bo-Katan and Moff Gideon fought each other and she was defeated by Gideon thus claiming the Darksaber. I think Bo-Katan's injured pride and wanting to follow the symbolism / tradition of obtaining the Darksaber is why she reacted the way she did in the finale..why she feels like her only legitimate claim to Mandalore is by defeating the current wielder of the Darksaber in combat. She didn't have that chance when she originally received it. Now she does.

That story, as implied by Gideon, is more important than the blade itself. Sabine Wren's mother alluded to this when Sabine told her she simply found the Darksaber in Maul's lair. It doesn't matter that she has it, but how she obtained it.

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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

Post by Gergall »

Maybe this is circular logic but the mere fact that Bo-Katan felt that she had to win the Darksaber from Gideon legitimately rather than merely take it, shows us that she saw Gideon as the rightful owner and therefore we must assume that he won it by defeating her. And this may be explained in more detail or shown in a flashback but I predict it will be largely left to the imagination.

Also I completely misunderstood DJK's question earlier, I thought he was asking for citation on the planet being purged, not a citation on an unseen Bo-Katan vs Gideon battle.
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Re: The Mandalorian (*spoilers* for released episodes only)

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arebelspy wrote:
December 30th, 2020, 12:00 pm
Man, how do you guys have time for REwatches??

I'd just trust Gergall. He's like the most town person on the forums.
Classic Scum behavior. I dunno from which of you. But both pretty sus.
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