Sequel Trilogy poll

Which of the following combinations describes your thoughts on the Sequel Trilogy?

I like Episode 7 only
7
9%
I like Episode 8 only
1
1%
I like Episode 9 only
2
3%
I like Episode 7 and Episode 8, but not Episode 9
8
11%
I like Episode 7 and Episode 9, but not Episode 8
16
21%
I like Episode 8 and Episode 9, but not Episode 7
3
4%
I like all three Episodes in the Sequel Trilogy
20
27%
I don't like any of the Episodes in the Sequel Trilogy
18
24%
 
Total votes: 75

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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by Corran »

Shadow 14 wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 6:56 am
arebelspy wrote:
December 31st, 2019, 4:29 pm
7 was too much of a 4 carbon copy. Not a fan.

Enjoyed both 8 and 9.
Although this is my opinion as well, I had to go with "like none of the episodes" in this poll.

Anything else inclines that I am happy with the trilogy, and I am really not.
My buddy Tom put it best: "The EU has been replaced with an inferior product"!

I liked episode 8 more than 7, and 9 more than 8 , but each episode made the previous one even worse.
So, I "kinda like them" UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, but all in all the trilogy is terrible.
A master piece on how to NOT do a trilogy ("editorial nightmare" comes to mind). ;)
Obviously you and I don't agree about the EU versus new content in general, but just remember the state of the EU before the Disney acquisition. We weren't getting the Thrawn Trilogy. Sure we had some gems(Kenobi and Scoundrels are 2 of my personal favorites), but we also had Fate of the Jedi followed by Crucible. As much as I still hope for a Sword of the Jedi book or trilogy to tie up the loose ends of the EU, the edge of continuity was a mess.

Of course, we also disagree about the quality of everything that came after, so maybe you were a fan of Legacy of the Force randomly killing off Mara jade or the endless treading water of both the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi series. Between those two series, that's 18 novels in a row that, on the whole, missed the mark(19 if you include Crucible, 23 if you include Millenium Falcon and the Dark Nest Trilogy).

The argument against this is that you liked the Legacy and Dark Times comic series that came out near the end of the Dark Horse run, but I just hate when people talk about the EU without discussing any novels that came out after Vector Prime.


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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by hanotsri »

I think largely the EU was a mess and that simply had to do with there wasn't a cohesive vision between George Lucas and Lucasfilm's publishing arm. A number of people have been getting bent out of shape about TRoS and how it does this or that to Anakin's legacy. It's clear to me now that the creators at Lucasfilm have a different idea about the prophecy of the Chosen One and Anakin's legacy actually means.

George Lucas gave his blessing for Dark Empire to be published. Granted, this was before the prequels and the concept of the Chosen One, but even after all of that Lucasfilm didn't strike it from the canon, continued to reference it, and brought back the Sith in a number of different forms (even eliminating the Banite Sith cult in the process in Star Wars: Legacy). I never saw EU fans get up in arms about any of that.

The EU was retcon after shoehorn after retcon because they had these different levels of canon that allowed it to be that way. I am not saying there wasn't good stuff. I really enjoyed most of Timothy Zahn's stuff, the Old Republic stuff, the Republic / Dark Times comic series, and the Republic Commando books (which were heavily sidelined by the The Clone Wars). I also enjoyed the New Jedi Order series, despite not being a huge fan of the Yuuzhan Vong (but hey, it was something different). Star-By-Star MIGHT be my favorite EU novel.

Say what you will about the new canon, but they've only had six years (and I generally have enjoyed it) thus far compared to the 30 + years of EU content. On top of that, we have the Lucasfilm Storygroup that largely keeps things consistent (there have been a few continuity hiccups, but nothing drastic). Now that we're beyond the Skywalker Saga, I think the there is a lot to look forward to.

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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by Shadow 14 »

@ Corran,
Yeah, we might disagree in this matter here and there. ;)

Although, I agree with you that not all the novels or EU stuff were great. You are absolutely right about many of the things you write. And although I liked the Legacy comic series, I can understand that they might have had to remove it from canon to do the sequels (150 years in the future will do that, if you want Luke and co around). Maybe the Legacy books would have to be "killed", too.

My point of view is just that I hate "erasing" stuff just for the heck of it. Most of the stuff in the sequel trilogy could have happened WITHOUT erasing the EU. You could have left 90% intact for what they delivered.

Mara Jade was dead anyway. Luke couldn't have been more peeved off anyway. Now she just "never was", which sucks imo.

The Thrawn trilogy is better than the sequel trilogy. I doubt that many people would argue against that.

There were 5-10 years between the last EU book and the TFA movie. They could have done ANYTHING to write the characters to the point they needed to be in the story, especially since they just killed them off anyway. It's just one sentence of Luke on Ahch-To saying "I had a wife and son once, but that was long ago blah, blah". Kylo could have been the son of Jaina Solo. Imo it was just lazy writing (and crappy writing, too).

I agree with you that not all of the EU was perfect, but there was no reason to kill it.
It's just disrespectful to George Lucas and to what came before.
Especially since they obviously had no clue or no bigger plan whatsoever for these movies.
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by Corran »

Shadow 14 wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 10:18 am
@ Corran,
Yeah, we might disagree in this matter here and there. ;)

Although, I agree with you that not all the novels or EU stuff were great. You are absolutely right about many of the things you write. And although I liked the Legacy comic series, I can understand that they might have had to remove it from canon to do the sequels (150 years in the future will do that, if you want Luke and co around). Maybe the Legacy books would have to be "killed", too.

My point of view is just that I hate "erasing" stuff just for the heck of it. Most of the stuff in the sequel trilogy could have happened WITHOUT erasing the EU. You could have left 90% intact for what they delivered.

Mara Jade was dead anyway. Luke couldn't have been more peeved off anyway. Now she just "never was", which sucks imo.

The Thrawn trilogy is better than the sequel trilogy. I doubt that many people would argue against that.

There were 5-10 years between the last EU book and the TFA movie. They could have done ANYTHING to write the characters to the point they needed to be in the story, especially since they just killed them off anyway. It's just one sentence of Luke on Ahch-To saying "I had a wife and son once, but that was long ago blah, blah". Kylo could have been the son of Jaina Solo. Imo it was just lazy writing (and crappy writing, too).

I agree with you that not all of the EU was perfect, but there was no reason to kill it.
It's just disrespectful to George Lucas and to what came before.
Especially since they obviously had no clue or no bigger plan whatsoever for these movies.
Your pitch for the sequel trilogy is actually pretty close to my original pitch. I'd have only brought back Luke as a Yoda figure and focused exclusively on completely new characters. Maybe pretend certain novels didn't exist if they contradicted what Disney wanted to do, but build on the concepts created. The time jump would need to be more like 20-30 years or more(maybe have luke get short and green to go along with my theory as a kid that Yoda was just a really old human).

Where we differ of course is what comes after. I was pretty upset about them getting rid of the EU, but I gave A New Dawn, Rebels, and the Marvel stuff a chance. My attitude was that of Barney when he's charged $45 for a beer in Homer versus the 18th.

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Also, I liked the Sequel Trilogy and the new world that they've built, so that's a thing too.
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by Cam Solusar »

Corran wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 9:33 am
The argument against this is that you liked the Legacy and Dark Times comic series that came out near the end of the Dark Horse run, but I just hate when people talk about the EU without discussing any novels that came out after Vector Prime.
I think you bring up an interesting point; I would rate every canon piece of fiction I've read (presently Bloodlines, Thrawn, Thrawn Allegiance, Rise of Resistance) at a similar level to the late EU stuff like The Joiner King, Legacy of the Force, and Fate of the Jedi (which I strongly disliked). These series were all reasonably well plotted and planned out between authors (there was a "grand unifying plan") and they were terrible. New Jedi Order started out poorly with Vector Prime, but the last 2/3 or so of the series were all well written. A lot of the last novels to be written for the old EU were great: X-Wing: Mercy Kill was superb, as was Darth Plagueis. Empire and Rebellion: Razor's Edge was a good Leia-centric novel taking place between ANH and ESB. Kenobi was OK. Honor Among Thieves was probably the worst SW novel I've ever read (and I think was the final novel of the old EU).

I think Star Wars thrives on good writing and character work. I think it suffers when it is constrained, and yes, fewer constraints will probably result in more Honor Among Thieves being released, but I'd rather risk having those terrible works if it meant we'd get more books like Wraith Squadron. I have no interest in reading 4/10 books set in the SW universe that just happen to jive well with one another when I could be reading 9.5/10 books set in the universe of an original intellectual property where the author has free reign to work with everything at their disposal with complete control. I think this was the strength of eras like the Dark Horse Legacy and Legacy II comics, as well as KOTOR. There were very few constraints given the distance in time from the Lucas canon.
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by Corran »

Cam Solusar wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 11:44 am
Corran wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 9:33 am
The argument against this is that you liked the Legacy and Dark Times comic series that came out near the end of the Dark Horse run, but I just hate when people talk about the EU without discussing any novels that came out after Vector Prime.
A lot of the last novels to be written for the old EU were great: X-Wing: Mercy Kill was superb, as was Darth Plagueis. Empire and Rebellion: Razor's Edge was a good Leia-centric novel taking place between ANH and ESB. Kenobi was OK. Honor Among Thieves was probably the worst SW novel I've ever read (and I think was the final novel of the old EU).

I think Star Wars thrives on good writing and character work. I think it suffers when it is constrained, and yes, fewer constraints will probably result in more Honor Among Thieves being released, but I'd rather risk having those terrible works if it meant we'd get more books like Wraith Squadron. I have no interest in reading 4/10 books set in the SW universe that just happen to jive well with one another when I could be reading 9.5/10 books set in the universe of an original intellectual property where the author has free reign to work with everything at their disposal with complete control. I think this was the strength of eras like the Dark Horse Legacy and Legacy II comics, as well as KOTOR. There were very few constraints given the distance in time from the Lucas canon.
I liked Honor Among Thieves and hated Razor's Edge lol. I also think that Star Wars thrives when the characters exist in an established era of continuity more than wide open. I've tried unsuccessfully to get through Dawn of the Jedi several times, but Fallen Order was one of my favorite Star Wars stories in years. If anything, I think the sequel movies(and the books that take place post RoTJ) suffer from existing in wide open continuity, focusing on character work over world building. It's so interesting that you and I disagree about literally everything.
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by Cam Solusar »

Corran wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 11:56 am
Cam Solusar wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 11:44 am
Corran wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 9:33 am
The argument against this is that you liked the Legacy and Dark Times comic series that came out near the end of the Dark Horse run, but I just hate when people talk about the EU without discussing any novels that came out after Vector Prime.
A lot of the last novels to be written for the old EU were great: X-Wing: Mercy Kill was superb, as was Darth Plagueis. Empire and Rebellion: Razor's Edge was a good Leia-centric novel taking place between ANH and ESB. Kenobi was OK. Honor Among Thieves was probably the worst SW novel I've ever read (and I think was the final novel of the old EU).

I think Star Wars thrives on good writing and character work. I think it suffers when it is constrained, and yes, fewer constraints will probably result in more Honor Among Thieves being released, but I'd rather risk having those terrible works if it meant we'd get more books like Wraith Squadron. I have no interest in reading 4/10 books set in the SW universe that just happen to jive well with one another when I could be reading 9.5/10 books set in the universe of an original intellectual property where the author has free reign to work with everything at their disposal with complete control. I think this was the strength of eras like the Dark Horse Legacy and Legacy II comics, as well as KOTOR. There were very few constraints given the distance in time from the Lucas canon.
I liked Honor Among Thieves and hated Razor's Edge lol. I also think that Star Wars thrives when the characters exist in an established era of continuity more than wide open. I've tried unsuccessfully to get through Dawn of the Jedi several times, but Fallen Order was one of my favorite Star Wars stories in years. If anything, I think the sequel movies(and the books that take place post RoTJ) suffer from existing in wide open continuity, focusing on character work over world building. It's so interesting that you and I disagree about literally everything.
I don't think I ever read Dawn of the Jedi. I think stories like that suffer from being TOO far removed from the established continuity. It might as well just be fantasy set in a different universe. Even a story set in the KOTOR era retains some sense of continuity because it's going to planets that we're already familiar with. Honor Among Thieves suffered this problem IMO because it was putting SW characters into situations and planets that felt like they were taken from 90s Star Trek novels.
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by mingtown »

The ST movies, particularly 8 and 9 have completely sapped my desire to consume any new Star Wars content, especially now that Mandalorian is done until next year. I find that I don't really care about any of the new characters or what they will do in the new EU.
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

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mingtown wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 12:11 pm
The ST movies, particularly 8 and 9 have completely sapped my desire to consume any new Star Wars content, especially now that Mandalorian is done until next year. I find that I don't really care about any of the new characters or what they will do in the new EU.
Same. I really just didn't care at all about the characters in E9. Finales are supposed to be emotional and this one (and the characters in them) felt hollow and completely uninteresting.
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

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But guys, SNAP is dead! :puppydogeyes:
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by imrahil327 »

quickdraw3457 wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 12:18 pm
mingtown wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 12:11 pm
The ST movies, particularly 8 and 9 have completely sapped my desire to consume any new Star Wars content, especially now that Mandalorian is done until next year. I find that I don't really care about any of the new characters or what they will do in the new EU.
Same. I really just didn't care at all about the characters in E9. Finales are supposed to be emotional and this one (and the characters in them) felt hollow and completely uninteresting.
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

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Shadow 14 wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 10:18 am
I agree with you that not all of the EU was perfect, but there was no reason to kill it.
It's just disrespectful to George Lucas and to what came before.
Especially since they obviously had no clue or no bigger plan whatsoever for these movies.
Wha? Killing the EU was disrespectful to George Lucas? How so? When he wasn't picking one or two things to put in the prequels, he was busy railroading it.

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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

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Cam Solusar wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 12:08 pm

I don't think I ever read Dawn of the Jedi. I think stories like that suffer from being TOO far removed from the established continuity. It might as well just be fantasy set in a different universe. Even a story set in the KOTOR era retains some sense of continuity because it's going to planets that we're already familiar with. Honor Among Thieves suffered this problem IMO because it was putting SW characters into situations and planets that felt like they were taken from 90s Star Trek novels.
I really like 90s Star Trek novels. I think I was super deep into them when I read Honor Among Thieves as well. The only KOTOR stuff I was able to enjoy was the Darth Bane trilogy, because of its connection to the prequel trilogy. The other stuff just didn't hook me.
hanotsri wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 12:44 pm
Shadow 14 wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 10:18 am
I agree with you that not all of the EU was perfect, but there was no reason to kill it.
It's just disrespectful to George Lucas and to what came before.
Especially since they obviously had no clue or no bigger plan whatsoever for these movies.
Wha? Killing the EU was disrespectful to George Lucas? How so? When he wasn't picking one or two things to put in the prequels, he was busy railroading it.
Also, the thing he was most involved with, The Clone Wars, stuck around and was already messing with the EU(Mandalorians, Evan Peal, Night Sisters, etc.)
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

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Corran wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 12:48 pm
Also, the thing he was most involved with, The Clone Wars, stuck around and was already messing with the EU(Mandalorians, Evan Peal, Night Sisters, etc.)
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. It was nice that he used Coruscant, Aayla Secura, and Quinlan Vos in the prequels...but largely he gave no sh*ts about what happened in the EU. He said so himself and the projects he developed were done so with very little regard to the EU. Erasing the EU was in no way insulting to George Lucas.

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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

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hanotsri wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 1:56 pm
Corran wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 12:48 pm
Also, the thing he was most involved with, The Clone Wars, stuck around and was already messing with the EU(Mandalorians, Evan Peal, Night Sisters, etc.)
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. It was nice that he used Coruscant, Aayla Secura, and Quinlan Vos in the prequels...but largely he gave no sh*ts about what happened in the EU. He said so himself and the projects he developed were done so with very little regard to the EU. Erasing the EU was in no way insulting to George Lucas.
I strongly disagree.

Of course he could not be hindered by thousands of EU books/novels/comics, but Lucasfilm tried a lot to coordinate the EU. When he needed a planet or character he actually LOOKED at what they had, before inventing it new (well, pretty sure he had a team). ;)
JJ Abrahams didn't even give a damn about anything. Just wipe out and tell a story that didn't need a wipe out.

My point is not "Lucas did everything right", but rather "if you are not able to play in the sandbox, then stay outta it". If they had a vision that was as awesome as Heir to the Empire back in the day, it might have been all worth it, but for this uninspired copy cat trilogy... meh!
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by Spoiler Man »

The thing about the old EU vs. Disney universe canon debate comes down to this:

Do you like the way the post-ROTJ galaxy was vs. now?

And most people will say the old. The old post-ROTJ timeline was better than the new one. More stuff in it, more better stuff in it, more interesting stuff in it. The new one has 3 pretty bad movies, and a few tiein books. The books don't even give anything interesting because their tieins for bad movies. And the movies themselves very heavily limit the new timeline too. Han goes back to being old Han. Luke goes AWOL once he tries to kill his nephew in his sleep. The New Republic is inept out of the gate. The Empire is basically destroyed at Jakkuu which is only 2-5 years after ROTJ.

The new timeline just isn't as interesting as the old timeline.

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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

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Dang, I think EP VII was where the sequel trilogy went wrong. No matter if you liked the prequels or not, anyone has to admit that they were really different from the OT. With EP VII however, everything was quickly set to "same old": Small group of rebels vs. overwhelming empire, with different names.

Where is the change to the galaxy defeating the Empire brought? What exactly is this new Republic that is only passingly mentioned? The OT was vague on many aspects, but creating a galaxy far, far away is different than returning to it.

Too bad they wasted there chance on continuing Star Wars - there could be another universe reset making EPs VII - IX Legends #2, but all OT actor are dead by then.

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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by mingtown »

Spoiler Man wrote:
January 3rd, 2020, 4:02 pm
The thing about the old EU vs. Disney universe canon debate comes down to this:

Do you like the way the post-ROTJ galaxy was vs. now?

And most people will say the old. The old post-ROTJ timeline was better than the new one. More stuff in it, more better stuff in it, more interesting stuff in it. The new one has 3 pretty bad movies, and a few tiein books. The books don't even give anything interesting because their tieins for bad movies. And the movies themselves very heavily limit the new timeline too. Han goes back to being old Han. Luke goes AWOL once he tries to kill his nephew in his sleep. The New Republic is inept out of the gate. The Empire is basically destroyed at Jakkuu which is only 2-5 years after ROTJ.

The new timeline just isn't as interesting as the old timeline.
To be fair, the previous EU had almost 30 years to develop into what it was. The current EU was understandably constrained until Episode 9 came out and all the rules were in place. Give it 30 years and I'm sure it'll develop into something similar. But again my problem is with the characters themselves. Luke, Leia and Han were super interesting characters at the end of the original trilogy compared to Rey, Finn and Poe. They tried to pad Finn and Poe's backstories a little bit in Episode 9 but it felt pretty rushed and flat.

And the galaxy itself feels unchanged from the end of RoTJ to the RoS. Like this massive superpower invades and is defeated as quickly as it rose. We don't even know what happened to the other inhabitants of the galaxy save for a few nebulous lines in the opening crawls.
Last edited by mingtown on January 3rd, 2020, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

Post by FlorisV »

Poll result speaks volumes on how divided SW fans are nowadays. That said (and having voted all 3 suck), I'm still glad the sequels were made. Otherwise I would have wondered forever what could have been, in a naieve way, thinking former glory could truly have been revived.

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Re: Sequel Trilogy poll

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My new hope is that eventually it is determined that TFA-TLJ-TROS are a parallel universe that branched out from Luke and Leia's conversation on Endor when she tells Luke to run far away, and he does, solidifying himself as a coward, then the Emperor leaves the D*2 before it is blown up and that's how he survived, and Anakin is never redeemed. Then the sequel trilogy that we have now would actually make a little bit of sense, and we will eventually get the trilogy that we deserved, albeit not with Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, and Harrison Ford.
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