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Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 14th, 2020, 11:08 pm
by hanotsri
chriskelly wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:59 pm
Also disagree with the point that there is nothing in ANH implying Vader is Luke’s father. There are lots of clues:
- Owen being afraid he had his father in him
- ben’s hesitation about telling luke how his father died
- Vader mentioning the force connection

None are really smoking guns but the clues are there looking back on it.
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Which yes I get there’s literature that said at the time George didn’t plan that, but when you watch the movies the films do not make it seem like his parentage is out of no where.
Those are conclusions that are drawn only after they did reveal Vader as his father. They're retcons which just proves what I am saying. In both the OT and the ST as new information was revealed it changed the way previous events are interpreted. I'd argue the PT is the most coherent of all three trilogies because Lucas knew the story he was trying to tell right from the beginning.

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 14th, 2020, 11:20 pm
by chriskelly
Agree that the conclusion can’t be finally drawn until the reveal, but disagree that that renders the clues foreshadowing it into a retcon.

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 14th, 2020, 11:25 pm
by Gergall
hanotsri wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:56 pm
Gergall wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:34 pm
hanotsri wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 5:57 pm
Return had to retcon Luke's sister into being Leia.
That is ridiculous, ESB very clearly teased Leia as Luke's sister.
It teased someone else ala "there is another." No way she was intended to be his sister during ESB. They made out in the Hoth med center.
Yoda says there is another.
The movie establishes that force runs in the family.
Luke calls out to Leia using the force and she can hear him.

I don't have a time machine handy but I'm sure, at the very least, it was a widely suspected fan theory.

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 15th, 2020, 6:25 am
by hanotsri
Gergall wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 11:25 pm
hanotsri wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:56 pm
Gergall wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 10:34 pm
hanotsri wrote:
July 14th, 2020, 5:57 pm
Return had to retcon Luke's sister into being Leia.
That is ridiculous, ESB very clearly teased Leia as Luke's sister.
It teased someone else ala "there is another." No way she was intended to be his sister during ESB. They made out in the Hoth med center.
Yoda says there is another.
The movie establishes that force runs in the family.
Luke calls out to Leia using the force and she can hear him.

I don't have a time machine handy but I'm sure, at the very least, it was a widely suspected fan theory.
I mean we'll have to agree to disagree, because the evidence surrounding ESB suggests otherwise. The "another" was originally meant to be a different character, the script originally had more love triangle material, there's a cut scene where Luke and Leia almost romantically (rather than reactively) kiss in the medbay, furthermore post-ESB Marvel comics continue the love triangle thread.

As Chris did with the Vader father reveal, you're re-interpreting scenes in ESB after getting new information in ROTJ. Which is the very definition / result of a retcon.

But let's say your right, and speculation was rampant after ESB about Leia...there was also plenty of speculation out there about Snoke out there that he was in some way related to Palpatine (he was literally Palpatine or a failed clone or whatever) after TFA and TLJ were released. You can find it out on the interwebs and people give all sorts of reasons why. Speculation which wasn't confirmed until TROS (which then allows us to re-interpret scenes from the previous films to help fit the new narrative)

Ultimately, the point I am trying to make is that the OT is just as "incoherent" of a story as the ST. Things are explained away or changed with a few words in each subsequent film and we accept it because it's a story we all know and love. Nostalgia is king.

The PT is the only trilogy in Star Wars that doesn't have this incoherency problem because George Lucas knew the exact tale he wanted to tell from the get-go (whether or not we like that tale is a different question entirely). He didn't have that as he was making the OT and LFL didn't have that in the ST. But in the end they write a few lines in order to make it all work even if the original intent was something completely different.

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 25th, 2020, 7:47 pm
by Gergall
Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions
Jedi Temple Challenge is canon (and slightly better than Attack of the Clones).

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 25th, 2020, 10:00 pm
by DS-61-4
Gergall wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 7:47 pm
Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions
Jedi Temple Challenge is canon (and slightly better than Attack of the Clones).
I would give you an upvote if I could, sir.

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 26th, 2020, 6:56 pm
by hanotsri
Gergall wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 7:47 pm
Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions
Jedi Temple Challenge is canon (and slightly better than Attack of the Clones).
I love this show.

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 26th, 2020, 10:23 pm
by arebelspy
Really? I'm surprised to hear that from multiple of you. I watched the first and most of the second with the kids and thought it was so bad. I'm sure rewatching Legends of the Hidden Temple would be also.

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 26th, 2020, 11:18 pm
by Gergall
arebelspy wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 10:23 pm
Really? I'm surprised to hear that from multiple of you. I watched the first and most of the second with the kids and thought it was so bad. I'm sure rewatching Legends of the Hidden Temple would be also.
No, Legends of the Hidden Temple has a better structure.

JTC first round is complete chaos, you have different teams doing different challenges simultaneously and the camera just jumps between them. You can't follow what anyone is doing and the only reason you can tell who is winning is because of the graphic at the bottom that tells you what challenges have been completed by each team.

JTC second round (knowledge test) has an okay premise but they blew it on the stories (for the 3 episodes that I've seen). The stories have nothing to do with Star Wars. The series premiere the story was something about a guy who makes models out of clay? To try to link it back to Star Wars in some tiny way they will mention a Hutt or a Podracer randomly in the middle of a story.
I'm not saying the story needs to be about Luke Skywalker, either. Just tell a story about a made-up padawan learning a valuable lesson from their master or tell a mouse-and-lion story about a brave pilot being saved by a droid (a mouse droid? heh! this stuff writes itself).

JTC third round is fine but really it cannot compete with the freakin hidden temple. The temple was enormous, with multiple routes (or at least the illusion of such, with some doors not opening in some episodes). Almec would even suggest 2-3 different routes to consider. JTC is just a few carnival games lined up a row.

So anyway like I said, JTC is slightly better than AOTC :-D

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 27th, 2020, 12:17 am
by arebelspy
Haha, okay, fair enough.

Re: Most Controversial Star Wars Opinions

Posted: July 27th, 2020, 3:37 pm
by fungineer
I will say the host of Jedi Temple is much less annoying than him playing Jar Jar binks.