Euro Worlds Official Schedule

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Shadow 14
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Shadow 14 »

I just added more info on how the tournaments for Worlds work above.


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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Paul McPherson »

Shadow 14 wrote:If we reach 55 players for Day 2 the Top 12 will advance to Day 3
This seems slightly bootleg to me. Worlds has previously had more players than what we are likely to have and they have always cut to the top 8. For me making Day 3 of Worlds means that you made the top 8 on Day 2.

I also have a slightly selfish reason for raising this. When I booked my flights I knew that if I made the Final 2 (big if, I know) that I would have to make alternative arrangements to get home (there is no way that you will be finished by 19:00 - which I'm fine with). I may now be faced with the same choice if I make the top 4 - now that is a much more difficult decision to make!!!

Also, just out of interest, where did the number 55 come from? It seems pretty random.
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by kryptofis »

I agree, cutting to Top 12 is a bad idea.
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Shadow 14 »

There are reasons for it, but since we are not even close to it right now, I won't give a detailed answer for now. If you guys all feel that way, I would be inclined to change it.

Every-one may enter their preference here:
http://www.doodle.com/ty3ww9av2dn4zk2n
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by mr007agent »

I don't really care. I don't see why it has to be the same schedule as other world events. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Greedo »

FWIW, the final cut for worlds hasn't always been top 8 - that was only from 2001. Previously it was the top 12 from day 1 (or day 2) playing 4 games of swiss, followed by the top 2 playoff.

So raises the question of how you'd run a top 12? It doesn't bracket evenly for a playoff, so you'd either have to run it old style with X rounds of swiss first and cut to top Y (this mitigates pre-bracket deckbuilding mindgames, but overly emphasises swiss matchup luck), or give a first round bye to the top 4 players from day 2 and seed #5 - 12.

My £0.02: The second option is better, but make people keep their decklists from day 2 for the day 3 bracket. And distribute copies of the decklists to everyone so there's a level playing field vis-a-vis information.

Comments from someone who won't be playing :)

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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

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Will you be visiting, at least? :)
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Greedo »

I don't think so mate, but I will at least be playing a few rounds later this month with the Leicester peeps. (Just been browsing the card files. Looks fun).

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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

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Greedo wrote: but make people keep their decklists from day 2 for the day 3 bracket. And distribute copies of the decklists to everyone so there's a level playing field vis-a-vis information.
This would be awesome. It would make people play good decks and not try to squeeze through a tournament with surprises.
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by kryptofis »

Now, c'mon ppl, let's not invent something for the most important tournament in Europe that we probably have in next 10 years... Deckbuilding for Day 3 is something I am looking forward to, teching against specific individuals is both fun and a kind of tradition, I'd say.
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Greedo »

I like it for several reasons:
(a) it removes the mindgames of building a new deck the night of day 2 to beat your first day 3 playoff opponent (based on what they played, or you think they will play, etc etc etc)
(b) even if you enjoy this particular element, it's unfair to the player who can't bring his whole card collection with him to worlds to build a new deck and/or doesn't have a group of friends to playtest a new deck with that evening
(c) it stops the inevitable problem of information asymmetry (I had my buddy watching your game while I was playing, but you didn't have someone watching me - so now I know what cards you are packing but you don't know what I have).

Basically you prepare for worlds before worlds. Once you're at worlds, you play worlds. It's not two different tournaments, it's one tournament with a top X playoff. If you're offering further rounds of swiss on day 3 as Decipher used to do, then perhaps there's a rationale for allowing new decks, but not if you're cutting to a bracket IMO.

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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

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First of, it's not like Day 3 in the current format is a mystery, it has been around for 10+ years and it's working fine. We have no idea how this idea would play out, cause it hasn't been tested. My point is, let's not try something new in a one-in-a-lifetime tournament for 2/3 of the field.

(a) "it removes the mindgames" - this game is about mindgames. Skills almost always come out on top, true, but without mindgames you take a lot of fun away.
(b) You'll have 50+ ppl to borrow cards from, it's more than an open community, I don't have enough cards to build what I want for Day 2, but of this I am not scared at all.
(c) it also takes one of the most ineresting part of the game away - that is suprise. It's not chess, it's a CCG, where part of the fun and skill is to build and PT your deck, put cards and combos that your opponent won't expect, etc.

If you're not preparing your Day 3 decks before Worlds, you're not seriously thinking about playing there and that's...well, your choice. However, the option is the same for everyone, so there is no disadvantage if you know the rules beforehand. And the stage was set months ago, ppl are already preparing, if you change it one month before the big day, you might seriously piss some ppl.
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by aermet69 »

I like your suggestions a lot Alex, but I agree with Krypto that this particular Worlds is probably not a good idea to test new stuff. I particularly like the idea of ensuring a spot for a specific win record. Last year I think less than half of the 6-2 got through to Day 3. I can definitely understand the irritation of being beaten out through the SOS tiebreaker in that way.

Here's a linky for you:
http://www.starwarsccg.org/cardlists/im ... empire.gif
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Greedo »

Don't get me wrong, I actually really enjoy the surprise element of CCGs (go look at the original dark surgeon posting - tis positively brimming with such things). But in a playoff scenario, it's not fair for the guys who don't have teammates watching their future opponents to find out ahead of time what they're playing. So unless you want to have them play the third day in a walled-off silo, it's a fairer setup.

FWIW, I also think the kinds of mindgames that are encouraged by changing up decks the night before a known match play are not the kind of skills you want the world championship to test (and risk actually damaging your quest to find the best player/deckbuilder there).

Re: timing, it's true that advance planning is important - although from what I've seen, the draft spoiler for 8.2 has only just been shown publicly - and there are several errata still promised to come before worlds. So I doubt future meta-planning for an as yet unknown day 3 is, relatively speaking, a big concern at this point.

Anyway, as I've said, I don't have a dog in the hunt. But I've played several CCGs in tournaments over the years and when I played ones that deployed this system, I always thought it was preferable to this way. Offered up as a suggestion only :)

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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Greedo »

aermet69 wrote:I agree with Krypto that this particular Worlds is probably not a good idea to test new stuff.
Yeah maybe not - I understand that it's important for EuroWorlds to carry the same trappings as USWorlds. Ideas for the future perhaps.
aermet69 wrote:Here's a linky for you:
http://www.starwarsccg.org/cardlists/im ... empire.gif
Now come and play!
I almost feel like it would be too obvious... 8>

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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Paul McPherson »

Greedo wrote:I don't think so mate, but I will at least be playing a few rounds later this month with the Leicester peeps. (Just been browsing the card files. Looks fun).
This is something that I am both pleased about and worried by!!!
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

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Paul McPherson wrote:When I booked my flights I knew that if I made the Final 2 (big if, I know) that I would have to make alternative arrangements to get home (there is no way that you will be finished by 19:00 - which I'm fine with). I may now be faced with the same choice if I make the top 4 - now that is a much more difficult decision to make!!!
I agree completely with Paul on this (which was why I was complaining about the different starting times earlier.

If you really do want to give more players a shot at Day 3, then I really like Alex's suggestion in another thread to potentially put anyone who goes 6-2 or better through, but with the caveat that the extra round be played at the end of Day 2 and using their Day 2 decks.
Greedo wrote:If you are cutting to a playoff bracket (such as worlds day 2 and 3), you should make sure it's a big enough bracket that if you are letting any 6-2 players in, then all the 6-2 players will have a shot. Where this results in an uneven bracket, you use tiebreakers to seed the top players directly into the second round of the bracket, and have the remaining players play the first round. This way you're using a tiebreaker strictly to rank people for the final rounds of play, not to potentially exclude people who ran afoul of tiebreaker math.

Most of the time this will mean one extra round of matchplay involving only 2-4 people. You could let them play it at the end of the penultimate day so the top 8 bracket is all that happens on the final day, or have them play it before top 8 on the last day. So it's partly a logistical question, but it also helps eliminate a problem SW has always had. Worth a try.
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Paul McPherson »

Darren Pilbeam wrote:
Paul McPherson wrote:When I booked my flights I knew that if I made the Final 2 (big if, I know) that I would have to make alternative arrangements to get home (there is no way that you will be finished by 19:00 - which I'm fine with). I may now be faced with the same choice if I make the top 4 - now that is a much more difficult decision to make!!!
I agree completely with Paul on this (which was why I was complaining about the different starting times earlier).
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by Shadow 14 »

Darren Pilbeam wrote:If you really do want to give more players a shot at Day 3, then I really like Alex's suggestion in another thread to potentially put anyone who goes 6-2 or better through, but with the caveat that the extra round be played at the end of Day 2 and using their Day 2 decks.
Greedo wrote:If you are cutting to a playoff bracket (such as worlds day 2 and 3), you should make sure it's a big enough bracket that if you are letting any 6-2 players in, then all the 6-2 players will have a shot. Where this results in an uneven bracket, you use tiebreakers to seed the top players directly into the second round of the bracket, and have the remaining players play the first round. This way you're using a tiebreaker strictly to rank people for the final rounds of play, not to potentially exclude people who ran afoul of tiebreaker math.

Most of the time this will mean one extra round of matchplay involving only 2-4 people. You could let them play it at the end of the penultimate day so the top 8 bracket is all that happens on the final day, or have them play it before top 8 on the last day. So it's partly a logistical question, but it also helps eliminate a problem SW has always had. Worth a try.
This might actually really be a good idea. One of my reasons for this is indeed to give all the 6:2 players a chance. At last year's Worlds we had 50-60 players and at least 1-2 players with 6:2 did not make the cut (one of whom was our pal DDM). In this regard I'm also not sure how an opponent dropping the tourney would affect your SOS score. Again, I'm not the SOS expert, but if this would affect your score, that would be one more reason to let the "6:2"s in.

Another thing, I have been to at least 1 Worlds in the past 10 years, where they had a Top 12, so this is not something completely new. Anyway, I did not want to open a pandora's box here, so vote in the doodle poll. If the majority is opposed to it, we won't do it.
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Re: Euro Worlds Official Schedule

Post by rlx »

Shadow 14 wrote:In this regard I'm also not sure how an opponent dropping the tourney would affect your SOS score. Again, I'm not the SOS expert, but if this would affect your score, that would be one more reason to let the "6:2"s in.
If your opponent drops it does not affect the SOS at all. If he does not drop, it might get better or worse depending on wether he wins or not. But as people tend to drop more often when they lose a lot early, it will hurt you more often.
If your opponent is 2:0 and drops that is perfect for you. If he is 0:2, it can not get worse if he continues playing (unless you get a rematch).
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