Deck Lists

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The Smoking Gungan
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by The Smoking Gungan »

Blarg wrote:One problem we have is that it is hard to give small penalties for things. You don't want to DQ people, because they won't come back, and you don't want to give game loses, because that is pretty close to eliminating people from making top 8. What about giving small penalties to SOS for decklist errors?

It would be something that is significant enough to make people take a little extra time with their lists, but not big enough that it would make a huge impact.
decklist errors and ppl getting creative with their lists are two different things and you shouldn't get them muddled. if you don't want to see stickers or jewbacca or w/e, then address that issue. penalizing ppl for forgeting to mark a card as virtual is something else entirely



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Re: Deck Lists

Post by The Franchise »

fwiw at times having decklists posted has been a way for the cbt to analyze the empirical data from events to properly grasp a cards given impact on the metagame.


personally, i'm at the point where i dont really care one way or the other. but lets either fix this or have an advocate make a statement that things wont change, cause it is a shame that after every single event there are all these butthurt complaint threads, when there should just be infinite threads slurping the winner (also fwiw on a personal note it would be cool to have events with actual winners and final played, but i guess that is just wishful thinking)

here i'll tell you guys whats up:
kevin stop with nicknames
aaron stop with the racism
herold stop with the stickers
desai stop stealing your list before it gets posted
reid start turning in better decklists (what good is a legible decklist if its a 60 card pile)

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Re: Deck Lists

Post by 3MW0J8 »

Hey I seem to recall u copying one of those 60 card piles for your last event.
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by The Franchise »

3MW0J8 wrote:Hey I seem to recall u copying one of those 60 card piles for your last event.
only 71/72 actually lol

didnt know why the obis apparition was in so i switched it for a celebration

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Re: Deck Lists

Post by AnakinSolo »

The Smoking Gungan wrote:
Blarg wrote:One problem we have is that it is hard to give small penalties for things. You don't want to DQ people, because they won't come back, and you don't want to give game loses, because that is pretty close to eliminating people from making top 8. What about giving small penalties to SOS for decklist errors?

It would be something that is significant enough to make people take a little extra time with their lists, but not big enough that it would make a huge impact.
decklist errors and ppl getting creative with their lists are two different things and you shouldn't get them muddled. if you don't want to see stickers or jewbacca or w/e, then address that issue. penalizing ppl for forgeting to mark a card as virtual is something else entirely

I do agree on this. I am one of the people most hurt about both of these and I have very different reactions to them. I am absolutely fine with creativity as long as it is PG13. But lists need to be clear about what the actual card is.
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by teh_brainiac »

penalizing people for decklists is the stupidest thing ever
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by The Franchise »

Dq someone ONE TIME and we never have this problem again. How * hard is it to write the names of 72 cards on a piece of paper legibly? I'd say you guys are * retarded but that would be an insult to a retarded person, since i saw one with my own eyes fill out a decklist at a mtg sealed deck event.

We're all here to have fun. But just fill out the damn decklist properly so we dont go thru this * every single damn event

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Re: Deck Lists

Post by rhendon »

teh_brainiac wrote:penalizing people for decklists is the stupidest thing ever
Not being able to properly mark a decklist is one of the stupidest things ever. It isn't hard to make sure you've filled it out correctly and marked v-cards. I'm not talking about using abbreviations or wacky names either. You'd be surprised how many people still don't do this properly. Why? Because they don't care. It takes a few minutes to do this right and that shows the TD, judges and the rest of the players who do take the time to do it right a little respect from them.

If everyone was an adult about this, then this wouldn't happen and again, I'm not even talking about abbreviations or wacky names.

Go play MTG and you'll understand the reasons behind them and you'll stop filling them out incorrectly when you reach match losses for it.

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Re: Deck Lists

Post by Anodos »

rhendon wrote:
teh_brainiac wrote:penalizing people for decklists is the stupidest thing ever
Not being able to properly mark a decklist is one of the stupidest things ever. It isn't hard to make sure you've filled it out correctly and marked v-cards. I'm not talking about using abbreviations or wacky names either. You'd be surprised how many people still don't do this properly. Why? Because they don't care. It takes a few minutes to do this right and that shows the TD, judges and the rest of the players who do take the time to do it right a little respect from them.

If everyone was an adult about this, then this wouldn't happen and again, I'm not even talking about abbreviations or wacky names.

Go play MTG and you'll understand the reasons behind them and you'll stop filling them out incorrectly when you reach match losses for it.

If we were adult about this we probably wouldn't be playing this game.
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by jimli »

It's hard to remember if it was 6 imperial propaganda nonv and 2 v, or 5 and 3.

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Re: Deck Lists

Post by JediJer »

I think one reason for the illegible decklists and extensive abbreviations is that people are trying to fill out their decklist 5 minutes after the event is supposed to have started. I understand there are sometimes last minute changes, but it shouldn't be too hard to fill out your decklist early and if you need to make a change, it's easier to cross off one card and write in the new one than it is to wait until pairings are being made to fill out your deck list at all just because you weren't sure what cards you'd be playing with.

Trying to get your decklist filled out before the event is scheduled to start will reduce the need to rush through writing your list, which will therefore help reduce the likelihood of decklist errors. It's too easy to miss marking a v or completely skip writing down a card or accidentally writing a card down twice when you're trying to write your list as fast as you possibly can so the event can start.

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Re: Deck Lists

Post by puck71 »

rhendon wrote:Go play MTG and you'll understand the reasons behind them and you'll stop filling them out incorrectly when you reach match losses for it.
There needs to be a good reason to do something, not just "that's how Magic does it." Maybe Magic's way isn't the right way, either. Just because they've been around the longest, and they have the biggest following, doesn't mean they should be looked to for policies. If anything, the opposite might be true. They have so many players, it doesn't matter if they piss off a couple for stupid reasons.
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by AnakinSolo »

this reminds me of the hunter argument about people showing up way way late.

As long as there is no penalty there will be late people. Any penalty will cut the behavior seriously back.

Along a similar line, if the penalty for incorrect decklists was something like a dock to strength of schedule (or differential) it would most assuredly be enough to curb the nonsense.
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by rhendon »

puck71 wrote:
rhendon wrote:Go play MTG and you'll understand the reasons behind them and you'll stop filling them out incorrectly when you reach match losses for it.
There needs to be a good reason to do something, not just "that's how Magic does it." Maybe Magic's way isn't the right way, either. Just because they've been around the longest, and they have the biggest following, doesn't mean they should be looked to for policies. If anything, the opposite might be true. They have so many players, it doesn't matter if they piss off a couple for stupid reasons.
I didn't say we should do it MTG's way. I don't think we can because you can't give game losses or things like you get to play extra basic land. I just said if you played MTG, you'd understand why the need for deck lists exists and why it is important to fill it out correctly.
MAVanDriel wrote:this reminds me of the hunter argument about people showing up way way late.

As long as there is no penalty there will be late people. Any penalty will cut the behavior seriously back.

Along a similar line, if the penalty for incorrect decklists was something like a dock to strength of schedule (or differential) it would most assuredly be enough to curb the nonsense.
Problem is though will the penalty stop people from showing up? You don't want to kill the community over deck lists but I think we've gotten so laid back as a community that we trust one another to not cheat by switching cards in decks when you find out matchup and things like that. So right now someone could get away with it and that in my opinion is worse than to spend a few minutes and everyone fill it out right.

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Re: Deck Lists

Post by gogolen »

Incorrect deck lists really only matter if deck checks occur during the event. Very few events have an extra person available to do deck checks- if there is even 1 extra person, we seem to want them to do online updates first, and then other event functions 2nd.

I remember the penalty at some point being a game loss for the last game you used the deck, and then you had to change your deck to match the list before using it again. We don't need to go the full DQ route, that would be excessive at the current state of the playing community. Again though, this only works if you actually check the lists during the event.

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Re: Deck Lists

Post by punkbear »

imrahil327 wrote:Yep, that's my biggest issue is there is very little in between DQ and nothing. SoS penalty is an interesting idea...

how to implement SoS penalty without impacting everyone else that person plays? then you penalize those that did nothing wrong. IDK, spitballing.

On a different note, Baroni got deck checked at worlds 09 i think, they found he missed checking a V and made him change the card. Joe Olson, in particular was very vocal, yelling about inegrity and such. Now i am not a baroni fan (or a Joe Olson fan), but it was teh suck he had to put an obviously bad card in his deck b/c of a little mistake. At the same time, Joe was also right in saying, if your gonna have these things then they need to stand up, make people be responsible for them etc.

personally, i think people do stuff b/c they know they are gonna get posted, so it is a joke they have come up with that they know the whole community is gonna see. so we are trying to impress each other, our little community, with a little joke. i get that, but i kinda wanna lean towards integrity. if you don't have that, we can get all types of 'opened a can of worms' problems (aka, shady characters slipping in different cards, raul going to the bathroom and changing his deck every round...after he just stole another U-3PO)

so i'd say make the decklist legit, we know your funny dudes, thats why we travel to events to hang out with you. its cool to have fun-but sometimes we gotta be a little legit-just to fool ourselves into thinking there is still some importance to these tourneys.
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by allstarz97 »

Said I wasn't going to post here again but just want to say that reading this thread makes me happy that I barely play swccg anymore and play magic all the time. I have no real interest in childish behavior and it not only appears that a bunch of players do, but in some way it's become integral to community itself.

I'm 31 years olf and enjoy a hobby that allows me to use my intelect in a competitive way. That's always been the major draw to card games, the community is great, I've made a bunch of awesome friends but that could happen other places, I come for the competition. I really don't see the connection between acting childish and this game... This is not a jungle gym, less than 5% of the player base at most events ( I know nationals was different because of the 8th grade class) is under the age of 15.

All in all like I said I think I am out numbered, and the community as a whole enjoys the childish stuff more than the intelectual content of the game. In fact, the threads that get the most views are generally the ones where people post idiotic ideas where they hope they will be recognized for identifying some type of irony. The posts about decks, and ideas, and strategies are usually few and far between (it wasn't always this way). So, maybe I am just a holdout from a dying age. So chalk em up as someone who is drastically losing interest in playing this game.

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Re: Deck Lists

Post by punkbear »

allstarz97 wrote:Said I wasn't going to post here again but just want to say that reading this thread makes me happy that I barely play swccg anymore and play magic all the time. I have no real interest in childish behavior and it not only appears that a bunch of players do, but in some way it's become integral to community itself.

I'm 31 years olf and enjoy a hobby that allows me to use my intelect in a competitive way. That's always been the major draw to card games, the community is great, I've made a bunch of awesome friends but that could happen other places, I come for the competition. I really don't see the connection between acting childish and this game... This is not a jungle gym, less than 5% of the player base at most events ( I know nationals was different because of the 8th grade class) is under the age of 15.

All in all like I said I think I am out numbered, and the community as a whole enjoys the childish stuff more than the intelectual content of the game. In fact, the threads that get the most views are generally the ones where people post idiotic ideas where they hope they will be recognized for identifying some type of irony. The posts about decks, and ideas, and strategies are usually few and far between (it wasn't always this way). So, maybe I am just a holdout from a dying age. So chalk em up as someone who is drastically losing interest in playing this game.

kinda funny you posted this after i just posted a 'make the lists legit' ramble.
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by Airdog2003 »

allstarz97 wrote:Said I wasn't going to post here again but just want to say that reading this thread makes me happy that I barely play swccg anymore and play magic all the time. I have no real interest in childish behavior and it not only appears that a bunch of players do, but in some way it's become integral to community itself.

I'm 31 years olf and enjoy a hobby that allows me to use my intelect in a competitive way. That's always been the major draw to card games, the community is great, I've made a bunch of awesome friends but that could happen other places, I come for the competition. I really don't see the connection between acting childish and this game... This is not a jungle gym, less than 5% of the player base at most events ( I know nationals was different because of the 8th grade class) is under the age of 15.

All in all like I said I think I am out numbered, and the community as a whole enjoys the childish stuff more than the intelectual content of the game. In fact, the threads that get the most views are generally the ones where people post idiotic ideas where they hope they will be recognized for identifying some type of irony. The posts about decks, and ideas, and strategies are usually few and far between (it wasn't always this way). So, maybe I am just a holdout from a dying age. So chalk em up as someone who is drastically losing interest in playing this game.
What are you so ticked off about, Justin? Some people wrote goofy stuff on their deck lists. You voiced your disappointment with their behavior. Some of the players you called out stated that they disagree with your opinion while others have said sorry, they'll try to do better. The Tournament Advocate PM'd you for your suggestions on how to “legitimize” deck lists and others are throwing out ideas and brain storming solutions. What did you expect to have happen? Are you really surprised that not everyone agrees with your opinion? Are you pissed Brad called you out? Do you want us SoCal guys stripped of our Nationals Championship because we made some unpolitically correct jokes on our deck lists? Seriously…I'd say the general reaction to your comments has been pretty favorable but of course, not everyone agrees. I'm not sure why this necessitates a "* you guys, Magic's better anyways" post. You made your point. It's being looked and considered. Whether or not something happens is up to the Tournament Committee.
The Franchise wrote:Dq someone ONE TIME and we never have this problem again. How * hard is it to write the names of 72 cards on a piece of paper legibly? I'd say you guys are * retarded but that would be an insult to a retarded person, since i saw one with my own eyes fill out a decklist at a mtg sealed deck event.
Seriously, Brad. You're gonna jump all over some people for writing unpolitically correct stuff on their decklists and then call them "retarded." :roll:
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Re: Deck Lists

Post by Kevbozzz »

Serious opinion:
Whatever happens with this whole decklist stuff, the deckcheck rule should be written so that when there is a discrepancy between a decklist and a player's deck, the tournament director can, at his discretion, change the decklist to match the deck rather than the other way around. So if he sees a deck that is clearly Huntdown V (the deck includes Coruscant, Imperial City, A Sith's Plans, but does not include any Executor sites) but the player forgot to check the little "V" next to his objective, the TD can simply change the decklist rather than force the player to put non-V Huntdown in his deck and essentially ruin his entire trip.

Note that this is at the TD's discretion. Now, this means giving the tournament director's some faith in their judgement. But honestly, if you aren't comfortable doing that, you probably shouldn't be playing in his tournament in the first place. I realize that there will be cases with cards like Imperial Decree in which it's not so cut and dry, and the TD will not be able to give the player the benefit of the doubt. But please don't give the stupid slippery slope argument or ask me to answer every possible hypothetical or complain that TD's aren't capable of making these judgement calls. If you guys want serious decklists so the game is more mature or whatever, I think granting TD's enough respect to make these judgment calls is fair too.

If the people on the other side of the debate would agree to this compromise, it would alleviate my main fear with a "serious" decklist policy. I'll even write out full card names (and maybe throw some nicknames in the margin, depending on how funny it seems at 4am).
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