Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by mr007agent »

mikefrench wrote:yah also to be clear, i strongly disagree with michael richards. my checkers example was sarcastic, i felt that was pretty obvious.
As Hunter would say, you made no sense whatsoever.


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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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allstarz97 wrote:Sometimes I think that playing dishonestly, whether it's forgetting your opponents cards on purpose or cheating the way aaron did, makes you a much worse player. If you are spending mental energy on those type of aspects, then maybe you can't focus on what actually matters in the game.
I guess you are insinuating that I am a bad player? What point are you trying to make because I don't see one.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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allstarz97 wrote:The fact that people feel it's ok to not play by the rules (your opponents cards establish rules of the game that is played imo) is absurd. Just because you play against someone dumb enough to not enforce them doesnt make it correct to go around them.
Cards on the table do not create new rules, 'in my opinion.'
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Shadow 14 »

Hayes wrote:Steve Lewis is one of the smartest, nicest and well-spoken Star Wars players I know. I agree 100% with where he draws the line in the grey sand.

I also remember the level of competition / state of the game when this was originally posted. There were players that would "forget" Visage every turn, no matter how many times you reminded them (unless they were flipped). I think things have become far more lax in recent years, which isn't a bad thing.
I in turn agree 100% with that.
With Steven Lewis I only agree 99%, since imho everyone should wear a naked Leia around the neck. ;)
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by DDM »

Shadow 14 wrote:I in turn agree 100% with that.
With Steven Lewis I only agree 99%, since imho everyone should wear a naked Leia around the neck. ;)
I love you, my lovely Jabba. :) :P
SirYoda wrote:I suggest we ban all creatures.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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Well, my sentence with the naked Leia was already a love declaration to you, David! :)
(European insider jokes. Don't mind us!)
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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allstarz97 wrote:Sometimes I think that playing dishonestly, whether it's forgetting your opponents cards on purpose or cheating the way aaron did, makes you a much worse player. If you are spending mental energy on those type of aspects, then maybe you can't focus on what actually matters in the game.
Justin, since we never played against each other, I need to ask...

Let's assume we play at Worlds, and are both 5:2, and it's the final game. I'm LS (you started the game). Time was called, and we are in my control phase. We both have no cards in hand, and the same life force and lost pile cards.

1) I have Luke with his Lightsaber (adding 1 to drain) at a 2/2 site and forget to drain you for 3. Do you remind me to do that?

2) Same situation, but I have 2 cards less in life force. You had Resistance in effect the whole game, but had sacrificed your Blizzard 4 at the end of your last turn, so you only occupy 2 battlegrounds now. Since you never lost more than 2 for most of the game (and you know Resistance is there and I know it) I of course announce my drain of 2 (thinking the LS bonus is of no matter). Do you remind me that Resistance is no longer in affect?

3) Same situation (same life force and all) but I have "I Hope She's All Right" on table, and it's the end of the game. Judge comes and wants to write down the score. We both forgot that you had to lose one in the draw phase. Do you lose the game?

I don't want to assume anything here, I would just like to know how you (and others) see these things.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by darkjediknight11 »

i'm not justin obv but i'll take a stab
Shadow 14 wrote:1) I have Luke with his Lightsaber (adding 1 to drain) at a 2/2 site and forget to drain you for 3. Do you remind me to do that?
luke's lightsaber is an optional modifier, so hell no.

Shadow 14 wrote:2) Same situation, but I have 2 cards less in life force. You had Resistance in effect the whole game, but had sacrificed your Blizzard 4 at the end of your last turn, so you only occupy 2 battlegrounds now. Since you never lost more than 2 for most of the game (and you know Resistance is there and I know it) I of course announce my drain of 2 (thinking the LS bonus is of no matter). Do you remind me that Resistance is no longer in affect?
per #1 it's optional so again hell no, but assuming it's a non-optional +1 modifier from something else and that i remember resistance isn't kicking in, it's against the rules not to make sure it's a drain for the legal amount.

Shadow 14 wrote:3) Same situation (same life force and all) but I have "I Hope She's All Right" on table, and it's the end of the game. Judge comes and wants to write down the score. We both forgot that you had to lose one in the draw phase. Do you lose the game?
if you both forgot and the game is already over then and conceded then that's done and done. * situation but you both forgot. if it wasn't an important game then i might concede it to you but when both players forget you can't do much about it after the fact.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by pete6982 »

DDM wrote:...
And Michael Richards has more or less the same opinion of him, but nowadays. He has found HIS own balance on this, and it's fine with him, and this is actually all that matters (since no rule state clearly that this is cheating, in a way, even if it's not good sportsmanship, at the very least).
However, I played Michael Richards in the past, and I think he plays a bit differently than he says here. Because while I don't remember him reminding me of my cards (maybe because I don't forget), I never had to ask him twice, as far as I remember, and games played with him were always enjoyable. Maybe he has a different attitude towards foreigners ? ;)
This is why I asked Scott/Chris to chime in. I hope they agree with Keith and clarify in the tournament guide accordingly. If not I hope they clearly state that tournaments must necessarily devolve into a wretched hive of scum and villainy. Then players would at least have the same idea of what constitutes fair play.
quickdraw3457 wrote:...
This is a really good point, and perhaps good enough to make me change how I see this. I never thought of it like that before.
I'll bet there are other players out there like Matt who will change how they see this if clarity is provided from the PC.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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darkjediknight11 wrote:
Shadow 14 wrote:3) Same situation (same life force and all) but I have "I Hope She's All Right" on table, and it's the end of the game. Judge comes and wants to write down the score. We both forgot that you had to lose one in the draw phase. Do you lose the game?
if you both forgot and the game is already over then and conceded then that's done and done. * situation but you both forgot. if it wasn't an important game then i might concede it to you but when both players forget you can't do much about it after the fact.
:lol:
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by darkjediknight11 »

mr007agent wrote:
darkjediknight11 wrote:
Shadow 14 wrote:3) Same situation (same life force and all) but I have "I Hope She's All Right" on table, and it's the end of the game. Judge comes and wants to write down the score. We both forgot that you had to lose one in the draw phase. Do you lose the game?
if you both forgot and the game is already over then and conceded then that's done and done. * situation but you both forgot. if it wasn't an important game then i might concede it to you but when both players forget you can't do much about it after the fact.
:lol:
i miss a joke somewhere?

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by stevetotheizz0 »

Mike Richards is a big fat cheater.


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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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darkjediknight11 wrote:
mr007agent wrote:
darkjediknight11 wrote:
Shadow 14 wrote:3) Same situation (same life force and all) but I have "I Hope She's All Right" on table, and it's the end of the game. Judge comes and wants to write down the score. We both forgot that you had to lose one in the draw phase. Do you lose the game?
if you both forgot and the game is already over then and conceded then that's done and done. * situation but you both forgot. if it wasn't an important game then i might concede it to you but when both players forget you can't do much about it after the fact.
:lol:
i miss a joke somewhere?
You
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Post by darkjediknight11 »

sorry you can't tell the difference between legitimately forgetting to do something and purposefully ignoring the text of cards on the table?

:???

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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Shadow 14 wrote: 1) I have Luke with his Lightsaber (adding 1 to drain) at a 2/2 site and forget to drain you for 3. Do you remind me to do that?

2) Same situation, but I have 2 cards less in life force. You had Resistance in effect the whole game, but had sacrificed your Blizzard 4 at the end of your last turn, so you only occupy 2 battlegrounds now. Since you never lost more than 2 for most of the game (and you know Resistance is there and I know it) I of course announce my drain of 2 (thinking the LS bonus is of no matter). Do you remind me that Resistance is no longer in affect?

3) Same situation (same life force and all) but I have "I Hope She's All Right" on table, and it's the end of the game. Judge comes and wants to write down the score. We both forgot that you had to lose one in the draw phase. Do you lose the game?
1. No, it's optional and you forgot.
2. No, it's optional and you forgot. (sidenote: always announce the maximum drain and let the other player worry about Resistance. you are not cheating by announcing a drain of 5 when Resistance is in play, because technically you're still draining for 5 and the other player is capping the loss)
3. Yes, I'd lose a force (edit: I misread the scenario. If both players genuinely forgot, and shook hands, and scooped up their cards, and then after doing so realized the mistake, that's too late to correct it. If the game is ending and my opponent forgets to instruct me to lose 1, but I see IHSA on table, I will take it upon myself to lose 1.)
Last edited by spideyguy0 on September 12th, 2013, 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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spideyguy0 wrote:
Shadow 14 wrote: 1) I have Luke with his Lightsaber (adding 1 to drain) at a 2/2 site and forget to drain you for 3. Do you remind me to do that?

2) Same situation, but I have 2 cards less in life force. You had Resistance in effect the whole game, but had sacrificed your Blizzard 4 at the end of your last turn, so you only occupy 2 battlegrounds now. Since you never lost more than 2 for most of the game (and you know Resistance is there and I know it) I of course announce my drain of 2 (thinking the LS bonus is of no matter). Do you remind me that Resistance is no longer in affect?

3) Same situation (same life force and all) but I have "I Hope She's All Right" on table, and it's the end of the game. Judge comes and wants to write down the score. We both forgot that you had to lose one in the draw phase. Do you lose the game?
1. No, it's optional and you forgot.
2. No, it's optional and you forgot. (sidenote: always announce the maximum drain and let the other player worry about Resistance. you are not cheating by announcing a drain of 5 when Resistance is in play, because technically you're still draining for 5 and the other player is capping the loss)
3. Yes, I'd lose a force
the point about resistance actually matters. if you only say drain 2, your opponent can just icbw for 2, whereas if you say drain 5, your opponent might play icbw for 3 but they still have to lose 2. this comes up all the time with cecv
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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WiseMarsellus wrote: the point about resistance actually matters. if you only say drain 2, your opponent can just icbw for 2, whereas if you say drain 5, your opponent might play icbw for 3 but they still have to lose 2. this comes up all the time with cecv

As an example, I tend to say "Lose 2 to a drain of 3" when ultimatum is out. Avoids confusion.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by WiseMarsellus »

drain three.
uh i have ultimatum.
i know, drain 3.
but ultimatum.
read the card.
uh, alright, i'll just lose 2. why didn't you just say drain 2?
nevermind
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by dorshe1 »

WiseMarsellus wrote:drain three.
uh i have ultimatum.
i know, drain 3.
but ultimatum.
read the card.
uh, alright, i'll just lose 2. why didn't you just say drain 2?
nevermind
I always do that on Holotable. I hit the drain key (force drain 3 from x site) and then in chat say, Lose 2/2/1 etc...

Of course anyone who has every played with me just laughed at the thought that I controlled three sites long enough go FD at :P
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by agnos »

When I think about cheating, there are a few different categories I generally put cheating into:
1. Intentional
The basic idea behind intentional cheating is that one player is actively deciding to ignore something that he is required to do and the other player should be aware of the situation but doesn't recognize the situation. This type of thing includes Retrieving 2 for Scum when Han's Toolkit v is in effect, not playing +2 (or +1) for Goo (or <> DB) when appropriate, giving corellians +1 forfeit when Palejo Rashad/WYSv (flipped) is no longer on the table. Here a player is intentionally trying to gain advantage by having his opponent not recognize game state. Bottom line: it's cheating. Yes, your opponent is ALSO responsible for maintaining game state (which includes both his cards and yours); that doesn't make it 'ok' to "ignore" the battle plan that your opponent put out last turn or 5 turns ago to see if he will catch it.

2. Rules Related
Here you are trying to take advantage by intentionally misrepresenting rules of the game. Yes, sometimes the rules are murky; I'm not referring to that here. I'm specifically referring to a situation e.g.: I know know that you cannot Elis a character with a captive (thanks Maven/Aglets). For me to intentionally try to Elis a character with a captive and explain it as an "auto-release" would be cheating. I would consider it even worse than above because what you're trying to is not just to hope that your opponent doesn't know/ask about the rule invovled but specifically misinform him so that you can cheat. Essentially rules related cheating is a category where one player is informed and the other player may not or is not likely to be informed.

3. Unintentional
Unintentional cheating covers all of the situations where because of the pace of the game/situation generally both sides should be aware of a situation and a player forgets to follow the rules. I've seen where a person forgot to pay for Battle Plan because of a number of battles the previous turn where he happened to lose all pilots and presence (but not all ships) at a location. Or a player moves to non-battlegrounds and retrieves force forgetting that Coward is in effect. Neither player is intentionally trying to avoid game rules, it's just that they are honestly forgotten.

As to the questions:
1. No. You declared a drain for 2. So long as a drain for 2 is a legal drain amount, then I will lose 2 to it. It's not my job to advise you to your best line of play or to help you win the game. I may get good guy steve points for doing so, but my job is to win the game. If you fail to try and win, that's on you.

2. Again, so long as draining for 2 is a legal amount to drain for then I will lose 2. If you could only drain for 3 or 4 (say presence at the 2/2 site) then I will tell you that that is not a legal amount to drain for.

3. Yes. If I do not satisfy and active IHSA or S&D, then I have to lose a force regardless. I lose a force. Exactly the same as if it were Visage or anything else. To no lose a force is either intentional or unintentional cheating.

I'm a very strong believer in the system that Magic uses. If a non-optional trigger is missed, then both players are docked for it. It's both players fault for not keeping up with gamestate. There are numerous people I know who have lost a game at high level events for forgetting to draw a card (for various unintentional reasons). Their opponents also got docked for it (although obviously not to the same extent). I loved playtesting and playing against Reid because I know he's a standup guy who's very clear with the actions that he takes and makes his best effort to follow each and every rule set by game rule or cards in play. I loved playing against Chu at the MPC in the Communing vs HDv matchup, not just because it was Chu, but because I didn't have to remind him to pay +2 for Goo to deploy guys to tatooine and that's what kept him from deploying to kashyyk later on.
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