Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by mikefrench »

mr007agent wrote:
allstarz97 wrote:Dear Michael Ricahrds,

Keep playing swccg the way you've always played it. But, for your own sake, please never play the following games in a competitive enviroment for you will probably be banned after one or two rounds of play:

All card games except yugi-oh.
I don't believe you.
lol

you'd be DQ'd from basically any ptq-level or higher magic tournament by the 3rd round. you'd have a match loss by the 2nd.

intent matters in magic. if you realize game text that says "you cannot gain life" but gain life anyway, that's actual CHEATING and you'll most likely be DQ'd instantly. judges are trained to ask questions very precisely to try to discover a person's intent in those situations.


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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by 3MW0J8 »

That's real sweet of you to say aggie but the problem then is, nobody (myself included) can remember everything all of the time. Especially as Steve's article says, players of lesser experience and/or skill who may have difficulty remembering just their own cards. So like, in one of your examples you say retrieving w/S&V with the Toolkit out is cheating bar none, but that sounds exactly like the type of thing a player (even a high-caliber player) might accidentally, temporarily forget. Maybe they even refrain from doing something else that turn so they can save Force for Aim High thinking they are about to retrieve. It's an innocent mistake and calling it cheating is overbearing and harsh. That's the problem with trying to paint things black or white when it comes to cheating. Some things are obvious but many aren't.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by allstarz97 »

3MW0J8 wrote:That's real sweet of you to say aggie but the problem then is, nobody (myself included) can remember everything all of the time. Especially as Steve's article says, players of lesser experience and/or skill who may have difficulty remembering just their own cards. So like, in one of your examples you say retrieving w/S&V with the Toolkit out is cheating bar none, but that sounds exactly like the type of thing a player (even a high-caliber player) might accidentally, temporarily forget. Maybe they even refrain from doing something else that turn so they can save Force for Aim High thinking they are about to retrieve. It's an innocent mistake and calling it cheating is overbearing and harsh. That's the problem with trying to paint things black or white when it comes to cheating. Some things are obvious but many aren't.
Lot to read. Will post some more at halftime of this game, but to start I think here's where I'm at:

Forgetting is fine if it's really forgetting or not understanding how something works, not ideal obviously but it does happen. The problem is that it's impossible to tell if people are forgetting on purpose or actually forgetting. When people come out and say that they are purposely doing this tough, that is where you're going to get some negative backlsh...


...But, this method of playing the game was accepted by Decipher for many years as well. Unsure of how that matters, but it seems like it at least should be mentioned. When I first started playing other games, VS, and especially Magic, there was certainly a level of culture shock, but after I got used to it I realized that they did it right.

I dunno, I guess it's all fixed if you yourself are just aware of everything.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by allstarz97 »

mr007agent wrote:
allstarz97 wrote:Sometimes I think that playing dishonestly, whether it's forgetting your opponents cards on purpose or cheating the way aaron did, makes you a much worse player. If you are spending mental energy on those type of aspects, then maybe you can't focus on what actually matters in the game.
I guess you are insinuating that I am a bad player? What point are you trying to make because I don't see one.
Two points:

1. Karma


2. If you spend mental energy focusing on how to gain a competitive edge by not losing to visage, or purposely forgetting your opponents cards, well then you might miss an actual good play here and there because you arent actually 100% focused on playing your best.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by agnos »

Look, I'm not expecting for everyone to always know everything and play everything correctly. At some point, rules/interpretations have changed, you're tired/preoccupied, nerves are high and focus low, etc. I'm not faulting people unintentional cheating. I've done it at points. But I don't think it makes it not cheating, just a significantly lesser offense. As for measuring intent, sure it isn't easy but it is possible.

Here's an example, in your game of CCT versus Shaw, for a while during the game I thought that you were intentionally stalling so you could get a timed loss and cut down his ability to get the +23 diff required for the win. But after seeing you're intended line of play (forcing a edge to remove a character instead of retrieve to reduce overflow) and talking with you while grabbing food, I realized that you weren't stalling for time but actually you were actively figuring how to lose the game that turn so as to win on diff (22 to 17). You were even pissed that you could've deployed BiS1 to battle at the DB for exact overflow regardless of OtE.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by pete6982 »

3MW0J8 wrote:That's real sweet of you to say aggie but the problem then is, nobody (myself included) can remember everything all of the time. Especially as Steve's article says, players of lesser experience and/or skill who may have difficulty remembering just their own cards. So like, in one of your examples you say retrieving w/S&V with the Toolkit out is cheating bar none, but that sounds exactly like the type of thing a player (even a high-caliber player) might accidentally, temporarily forget. Maybe they even refrain from doing something else that turn so they can save Force for Aim High thinking they are about to retrieve. It's an innocent mistake and calling it cheating is overbearing and harsh. That's the problem with trying to paint things black or white when it comes to cheating. Some things are obvious but many aren't.
Agreed, but I think we should all agree (and state in the tourney guide), that intentionally forgetting is wrong. I think the majority of players will not ignore game text on opponent's cards if it is established that it is wrong to do so and that it constitutes cheating. Steve Lewis's argument that "everyone is doing it so I will too" is a lousy one IMO. Sounds like Chris and Keith agree. Can the rest of the advocates come to a consensus?

Taking it to the next level, constantly forgetting things could be considered cheating as well. Like if I have to remind an experienced opponent every turn that Goo is out or Battle Plan, etc.; I should be able to call a judge who would then observe the game and assess a penalty in the same manner that they might for stalling. In general I think such penalties should only be assessed a major events.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by 3MW0J8 »

Funny here's another me vs Shaw story from some game years ago. I shot his ship with the LCB and he placed it immediately in lost pile (must've been thinking of the X-wing Cannon). I let him do it and some would say that's blatant cheating BUT:

A. It was his only ship in the battle
and
B. I out-powered him

So conceptually, by placing his cards in lost pile he could have just been declining BD. It was a legal play. So I said nothing and went on with the game. I would do it again in a heartbeat and I don't feel badly about it. IF however either A or B above had not been true, I would have spoken up and given him the option to draw BD (and drawn my own as well).
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Blarg »

I'll do whatever my opponent does. If I have to remind them of things they should remember, then I'll make them remind me of things. If they make an effort to do things without me asking, then I'll do the same.
I should be able to call a judge who would then observe the game and assess a penalty in the same manner that they might for stalling.
I would support this if we could figure out a good way to implement it.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by 3MW0J8 »

@pete: maybe (and that's a big maybe) we can all agree that intentionally forgetting is wrong. And repeatedly forgetting like you describe in your second paragraph IS wrong, and frankly just doesn't happen among top tournament players anymore. Cuz not only is it wrong, it's just plain douchey.

BUT (and this is a big, big ol' butt) even IF we could get everyone to agree that intentionally forgetting is wrong, as others have stated proving intent is impossible. And I do NOT want to be penalized (or see others penalized) for legitimately forgetting one of my opponent's cards when I'm already stretched thin trying to keep track of all of my own.

As a corollary I find it ironic that most players' attitudes towards forgetting their own cards (along the lines of "d'oh I forgot my guy deploys -1 there, guess I just have to get better" or whatever) runs contrary to their attitudes towards remembering the opponent's cards. So like if you forget your own cards you're just a bad player but if you forget your opponent's cards you're a cheater. :roll:
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by agnos »

If the deployment modifier isn't optional, then I'd consider it unintentional cheating.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by allstarz97 »

3MW0J8 wrote:@pete: maybe (and that's a big maybe) we can all agree that intentionally forgetting is wrong. And repeatedly forgetting like you describe in your second paragraph IS wrong, and frankly just doesn't happen among top tournament players anymore. Cuz not only is it wrong, it's just plain douchey.

BUT (and this is a big, big ol' butt) even IF we could get everyone to agree that intentionally forgetting is wrong, as others have stated proving intent is impossible. And I do NOT want to be penalized (or see others penalized) for legitimately forgetting one of my opponent's cards when I'm already stretched thin trying to keep track of all of my own.

As a corollary I find it ironic that most players' attitudes towards forgetting their own cards (along the lines of "d'oh I forgot my guy deploys -1 there, guess I just have to get better" or whatever) runs contrary to their attitudes towards remembering the opponent's cards. So like if you forget your own cards you're just a bad player but if you forget your opponent's cards you're a cheater. :roll:
Does everyone agree that it's wrong?? Seemed like the last few pages have been an argument on this point.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Steviegets112 »

You guys are all full of SHHHHHHHHHHHHH

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Remaker »

do i need to start cheetoring to win more games? Is that the basic synopsis of this * show of a thread?
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by mserisman »

Some random points....

I always drain for the full amount, no matter what my opponent has out. If they have "Resistance" and I am draining for 3, then I still declare a drain of 3. They can lose only two, but that is their issue. I have had situations where they lose three anyway, and often have to remind them they only have to lose two.

I, now more than ever, have a mistrust of players who design all their decks to allow for searches of RD 3-4 times per turn. Watched one player do this religiously and always, always have the cards they needed. Hmm.. We know how that one turned out.

Some players are simply sloppy, as likely to hurt themselves than help themselves (forget their own cards, forget to force drain, over activate, under pay, play with 58 cards, etc). I have no problems with such players. Watch them closely and spend a lot of time reminding them, but its not "cheating" IMO.

This is a * game. So if you spend time and energy trying to cheat for your own benefit, then you have much bigger problems than winning or losing the card games. If the person recently mentioned took the same approach to his/her job and acted that way then a lot more consequences than public humiliation across a tiny sub-culture would result.

So the moral of the story is that if you suspect someone of cheating in a game that doesn't matter, don't trust them in anything that does.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by DDM »

3MW0J8 wrote:Funny here's another me vs Shaw story from some game years ago. I shot his ship with the LCB and he placed it immediately in lost pile (must've been thinking of the X-wing Cannon). I let him do it and some would say that's blatant cheating BUT:

A. It was his only ship in the battle
and
B. I out-powered him

So conceptually, by placing his cards in lost pile he could have just been declining BD. It was a legal play. So I said nothing and went on with the game. I would do it again in a heartbeat and I don't feel badly about it. IF however either A or B above had not been true, I would have spoken up and given him the option to draw BD (and drawn my own as well).
If he was the one starting the battle and he also lost some force to the lsc hit then maybe ok. Else no.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by pete6982 »

mserisman wrote:Some players are simply sloppy, as likely to hurt themselves than help themselves (forget their own cards, forget to force drain, over activate, under pay, play with 58 cards, etc). I have no problems with such players. Watch them closely and spend a lot of time reminding them, but its not "cheating" IMO.
I used to be this way, somewhat with my own deck, but especially with my opponent's cards. When I started playing again in 2008, I only knew the text on a fraction of the cards through Endor or so. I had to read every card they put down, and had to be reminded for stuff like goo and even battle plan/order. I liked the game but just hadn't played it enough to always remember my own cards, let alone my opponents. Needless to say I'd get blown out so bad that my opponents generally didn't complain.

That is completely different from a veteran player ignoring search & destroy unless his opponent reminds him, or allowing their opponent to forget they satisfy resistance and lose 3 to a drain. It is unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and should be considered cheating.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Shadow 14 »

3MW0J8 wrote:@pete: maybe (and that's a big maybe) we can all agree that intentionally forgetting is wrong. And repeatedly forgetting like you describe in your second paragraph IS wrong, and frankly just doesn't happen among top tournament players anymore. Cuz not only is it wrong, it's just plain douchey.

BUT (and this is a big, big ol' butt) even IF we could get everyone to agree that intentionally forgetting is wrong, as others have stated proving intent is impossible. And I do NOT want to be penalized (or see others penalized) for legitimately forgetting one of my opponent's cards when I'm already stretched thin trying to keep track of all of my own.

As a corollary I find it ironic that most players' attitudes towards forgetting their own cards (along the lines of "d'oh I forgot my guy deploys -1 there, guess I just have to get better" or whatever) runs contrary to their attitudes towards remembering the opponent's cards. So like if you forget your own cards you're just a bad player but if you forget your opponent's cards you're a cheater. :roll:
Yes, I agree with that. Especially with the last part, I find that very ironic, too.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Shadow 14 »

pete6982 wrote:
mserisman wrote:Some players are simply sloppy, as likely to hurt themselves than help themselves (forget their own cards, forget to force drain, over activate, under pay, play with 58 cards, etc). I have no problems with such players. Watch them closely and spend a lot of time reminding them, but its not "cheating" IMO.
I used to be this way, somewhat with my own deck, but especially with my opponent's cards. When I started playing again in 2008, I only knew the text on a fraction of the cards through Endor or so. I had to read every card they put down, and had to be reminded for stuff like goo and even battle plan/order. I liked the game but just hadn't played it enough to always remember my own cards, let alone my opponents. Needless to say I'd get blown out so bad that my opponents generally didn't complain.

That is completely different from a veteran player ignoring search & destroy unless his opponent reminds him, or allowing their opponent to forget they satisfy resistance and lose 3 to a drain. It is unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and should be considered cheating.

So, in the beginning or in 2008 you were a big cheater (although unintentional). But that's ok, because you were losing games. :sarcasm:

But if you're now meeting a veteran opponent, who wins games, and keeps track of all his cards (also tries to remember the secondary functions), tracks multiple destinies, tries to track YOUR destiny, keeps track of how much force you have left and how many cards you have in hand (not to annoy you, but just to know what COULD happen), and tries not to forget any of his own actions. If this guy doesn't want to spend his brain power to keep track of your cards, it's not ok?

I do not consider him a cheater. I consider him to be the better player.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by aermet69 »

Shadow 14 wrote:
pete6982 wrote:
mserisman wrote:Some players are simply sloppy, as likely to hurt themselves than help themselves (forget their own cards, forget to force drain, over activate, under pay, play with 58 cards, etc). I have no problems with such players. Watch them closely and spend a lot of time reminding them, but its not "cheating" IMO.
I used to be this way, somewhat with my own deck, but especially with my opponent's cards. When I started playing again in 2008, I only knew the text on a fraction of the cards through Endor or so. I had to read every card they put down, and had to be reminded for stuff like goo and even battle plan/order. I liked the game but just hadn't played it enough to always remember my own cards, let alone my opponents. Needless to say I'd get blown out so bad that my opponents generally didn't complain.

That is completely different from a veteran player ignoring search & destroy unless his opponent reminds him, or allowing their opponent to forget they satisfy resistance and lose 3 to a drain. It is unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and should be considered cheating.

So, in the beginning or in 2008 you were a big cheater (although unintentional). But that's ok, because you were losing games. :sarcasm:

But if you're now meeting a veteran opponent, who wins games, and keeps track of all his cards (also tries to remember the secondary functions), tracks multiple destinies, tries to track YOUR destiny, keeps track of how much force you have left and how many cards you have in hand (not to annoy you, but just to know what COULD happen), and tries not to forget any of his own actions. If this guy doesn't want to spend his brain power to keep track of your cards, it's not ok?

I do not consider him a cheater. I consider him to be the better player.
No actually I don't think it is. If you can keep track of all that, you also know what is on the table. Can you forget once in a while? Yes, of course. As soon as last monday I forgot to Force drain one turn because I was eager to get my plan going. But if you are purposefully not remembering your opponent's effects that affects you, then I'd say you cheat. Is it hard to enforce? Yes. Does that hardness make it non-cheating? No.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by rax »

pete6982 wrote:That is completely different from a veteran player ignoring search & destroy unless his opponent reminds him, or allowing their opponent to forget they satisfy resistance and lose 3 to a drain. It is unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and should be considered cheating.
I really don't consider it cheating if you allow an opponent to forget his resistance when drained for 3. He has resistance out, but he has to remember that. This is quite a complicated game, and when playing in big tournaments, with many cards on the table, and the clock is ticking, it becomes VERY difficult to remember everything that's going on.. in fact, the ability to have that overview is often what makes the difference between a good player and an average one.

Allowing your opponent to be drained for 3+ because he forgot his shield in the heat of everything is not cheating. It is just like if he has some random site with a dude on the edge of the table, and he forgets to drain there because he is focusing on something else. You are not cheating if you choose not to remind him to drain you at that location as well.

Yes, I know there is a difference between mandatory and voluntary actions/events here. But the second we start to label stuff like this as cheating, it becomes too easy to point fingers at others when you forget things yourself.

The ability to have an overview of the cards on the table and their effects is often the difference between a good player and an average player in this game.
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