Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

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Steviegets112
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Steviegets112 »

Shadow 14 wrote:
pete6982 wrote:
mserisman wrote:Some players are simply sloppy, as likely to hurt themselves than help themselves (forget their own cards, forget to force drain, over activate, under pay, play with 58 cards, etc). I have no problems with such players. Watch them closely and spend a lot of time reminding them, but its not "cheating" IMO.
I used to be this way, somewhat with my own deck, but especially with my opponent's cards. When I started playing again in 2008, I only knew the text on a fraction of the cards through Endor or so. I had to read every card they put down, and had to be reminded for stuff like goo and even battle plan/order. I liked the game but just hadn't played it enough to always remember my own cards, let alone my opponents. Needless to say I'd get blown out so bad that my opponents generally didn't complain.

That is completely different from a veteran player ignoring search & destroy unless his opponent reminds him, or allowing their opponent to forget they satisfy resistance and lose 3 to a drain. It is unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and should be considered cheating.

So, in the beginning or in 2008 you were a big cheater (although unintentional). But that's ok, because you were losing games. :sarcasm:

But if you're now meeting a veteran opponent, who wins games, and keeps track of all his cards (also tries to remember the secondary functions), tracks multiple destinies, tries to track YOUR destiny, keeps track of how much force you have left and how many cards you have in hand (not to annoy you, but just to know what COULD happen), and tries not to forget any of his own actions. If this guy doesn't want to spend his brain power to keep track of your cards, it's not ok?

I do not consider him a cheater. I consider him to be the better player.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by aeneas23 »

Lots of words on this thread lately, but not very much substance. I'm going to try and avoid my typical novel-length response. So to address some points:

1. There is no such thing as unintentional cheating. Cheating is an intentional act by its very nature. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cheating

2. There is nothing morally wrong with "honestly" forgetting card effects/interactions.

3. It is quite difficult to determine someone's intent, but it is not impossible. It is however impractical to expect to be able to do it very often.

4. Spending much time discussing "cheating" and how to deal with it isn't very productive. It is almost certainly the case that very morally questionable things are done at the tables at swccg events, but we are almost never going to be able to prove that cheating occurred because there won't be video evidence like there was for Aaron.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by mikefrench »

i think the big issue is that there are people that don't understand the rules of this game. the rules say that if something says "may" then you certainly don't have to help your opponent remember it. but if something doesn't say "may" then it's MANDATORY. mandatory doesn't mean "if your opponent remembers" it means this is the way the game is played. we should not be looking in the AR to prove michael richards wrong, we should be looking in a tournament guide to find out what an infraction is and how it's punished. he's already admitted that he plays the game incorrectly by purposefully not following MANDATORY rules and actions of the game (like not losing to visage).
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Blarg »

mikefrench wrote:i think the big issue is that there are people that don't understand the rules of this game. the rules say that if something says "may" then you certainly don't have to help your opponent remember it. but if something doesn't say "may" then it's MANDATORY. mandatory doesn't mean "if your opponent remembers" it means this is the way the game is played. we should not be looking in the AR to prove michael richards wrong, we should be looking in a tournament guide to find out what an infraction is and how it's punished. he's already admitted that he plays the game incorrectly by purposefully not following MANDATORY rules and actions of the game (like not losing to visage).
The new tournament guide specifically says that Mike Richards is correct:
3.2. Forgotten actions: The owner of a card has the responsibility to perform or enforce
any actions resulting from that card including any automatic actions. However, this does
not preclude their opponent from reminding them of their actions.
Examples:
•The Dark Side player has Visage Of The Emperor on the table. At the end of their turn,
it is their responsibility to make himself and their opponent lose 1 Force. However, the
Light Side player may remind the Dark Side player to perform this action.
•The Light Side player has Ice Storm on the table. During their control phase, it is their
responsibility to move Ice Storm to the next marker site. However, the Dark Side player
has no obligation to remind the Light Side player to do this.
•The Dark Side player has Battle Order on the table. During their control phase, they do
not use three Force but proceed to Force Drain their opponent at a site. Their opponent
can then remind them to use the three Force or else the drain may not be initiated.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by mikefrench »

that is not relevant. that's forgotten. not purposefully ignored. in this case, intent is pretty easy to discern since he's publicly stated his intent.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Blarg »

In my reading, it is referring to action forgotten by their owner.

(1) The owner of a card has the responsibility to perform or enforce any actions resulting from that card including any automatic actions.

So if you own a card, then if you remember that the card should be enforced, you are not allowed to ignore it.

(2) However, this does not preclude their opponent from reminding them of their actions.

Note that it says nothing about responsibility here. The opponent can (but has no obligation to) remind them of their actions. The phrase "their actions" includes automatic actions per the previous line.

(3) The Light Side player has Ice Storm on the table. During their control phase, it is their
responsibility to move Ice Storm to the next marker site. However, the Dark Side player
has no obligation to remind the Light Side player to do this
.

In this line, there is no qualification of the fact that the Dark Side player has no obligation to remind the Light Side player. It is an absolute statement and thus applies in all circumstances, including those in which the Dark Side player knows that the Ice Storm should be moved.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Hari Seldon »

rax wrote:
pete6982 wrote:That is completely different from a veteran player ignoring search & destroy unless his opponent reminds him, or allowing their opponent to forget they satisfy resistance and lose 3 to a drain. It is unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and should be considered cheating.
I really don't consider it cheating if you allow an opponent to forget his resistance when drained for 3. He has resistance out, but he has to remember that. This is quite a complicated game, and when playing in big tournaments, with many cards on the table, and the clock is ticking, it becomes VERY difficult to remember everything that's going on.. in fact, the ability to have that overview is often what makes the difference between a good player and an average one.

Allowing your opponent to be drained for 3+ because he forgot his shield in the heat of everything is not cheating. It is just like if he has some random site with a dude on the edge of the table, and he forgets to drain there because he is focusing on something else. You are not cheating if you choose not to remind him to drain you at that location as well.

Yes, I know there is a difference between mandatory and voluntary actions/events here. But the second we start to label stuff like this as cheating, it becomes too easy to point fingers at others when you forget things yourself.

The ability to have an overview of the cards on the table and their effects is often the difference between a good player and an average player in this game.
Your two examples are completely different. Nothing in any rules anywhere mandates a player force draining at every location they are allowed to. Resistance says "you lose no more than 2 force" and if you knowingly allow the opponent to lose more than 2 force to a force drain you are arguably cheating. You are allowing something to happen that is outside the rules of the game as created by the cards on the table. It's not an error, it's intentional breaking of the rules. In many games and activities, breaking the rules to benefit yourself is the definition of cheating.
allstarz97 wrote:...and thematically, as everyone is referencing on this thread, why are people not mentioning the part where mace windu is crying like a little *, gets his hand cut off and then gets thrown out a window?

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by rax »

Hari Seldon wrote:
rax wrote:
pete6982 wrote:That is completely different from a veteran player ignoring search & destroy unless his opponent reminds him, or allowing their opponent to forget they satisfy resistance and lose 3 to a drain. It is unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and should be considered cheating.
I really don't consider it cheating if you allow an opponent to forget his resistance when drained for 3. He has resistance out, but he has to remember that. This is quite a complicated game, and when playing in big tournaments, with many cards on the table, and the clock is ticking, it becomes VERY difficult to remember everything that's going on.. in fact, the ability to have that overview is often what makes the difference between a good player and an average one.

Allowing your opponent to be drained for 3+ because he forgot his shield in the heat of everything is not cheating. It is just like if he has some random site with a dude on the edge of the table, and he forgets to drain there because he is focusing on something else. You are not cheating if you choose not to remind him to drain you at that location as well.

Yes, I know there is a difference between mandatory and voluntary actions/events here. But the second we start to label stuff like this as cheating, it becomes too easy to point fingers at others when you forget things yourself.

The ability to have an overview of the cards on the table and their effects is often the difference between a good player and an average player in this game.
Your two examples are completely different. Nothing in any rules anywhere mandates a player force draining at every location they are allowed to. Resistance says "you lose no more than 2 force" and if you knowingly allow the opponent to lose more than 2 force to a force drain you are arguably cheating. You are allowing something to happen that is outside the rules of the game as created by the cards on the table. It's not an error, it's intentional breaking of the rules. In many games and activities, breaking the rules to benefit yourself is the definition of cheating.
Yet, the tournament rules disagree on that:

•The Light Side player has Ice Storm on the table. During their control phase, it is their
responsibility to move Ice Storm to the next marker site. However, the Dark Side player
has no obligation to remind the Light Side player to do this.

In this case, it is also a mandatory rule that the Ice Storm should be moved, but if the dark side player notices, he has no obligation to remind the light side player. Given that this is a mandatory action, not a voluntary one, I'd say it is similar to noticing that the light side player forgot HIS OWN Ultimatum shield, but not having any obligation to remind him.

You may disagree, but that's my take.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Hari Seldon »

rax wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:
rax wrote:
pete6982 wrote:That is completely different from a veteran player ignoring search & destroy unless his opponent reminds him, or allowing their opponent to forget they satisfy resistance and lose 3 to a drain. It is unsportsmanlike, dishonest, and should be considered cheating.
I really don't consider it cheating if you allow an opponent to forget his resistance when drained for 3. He has resistance out, but he has to remember that. This is quite a complicated game, and when playing in big tournaments, with many cards on the table, and the clock is ticking, it becomes VERY difficult to remember everything that's going on.. in fact, the ability to have that overview is often what makes the difference between a good player and an average one.

Allowing your opponent to be drained for 3+ because he forgot his shield in the heat of everything is not cheating. It is just like if he has some random site with a dude on the edge of the table, and he forgets to drain there because he is focusing on something else. You are not cheating if you choose not to remind him to drain you at that location as well.

Yes, I know there is a difference between mandatory and voluntary actions/events here. But the second we start to label stuff like this as cheating, it becomes too easy to point fingers at others when you forget things yourself.

The ability to have an overview of the cards on the table and their effects is often the difference between a good player and an average player in this game.
Your two examples are completely different. Nothing in any rules anywhere mandates a player force draining at every location they are allowed to. Resistance says "you lose no more than 2 force" and if you knowingly allow the opponent to lose more than 2 force to a force drain you are arguably cheating. You are allowing something to happen that is outside the rules of the game as created by the cards on the table. It's not an error, it's intentional breaking of the rules. In many games and activities, breaking the rules to benefit yourself is the definition of cheating.
Yet, the tournament rules disagree on that:

•The Light Side player has Ice Storm on the table. During their control phase, it is their
responsibility to move Ice Storm to the next marker site. However, the Dark Side player
has no obligation to remind the Light Side player to do this.

In this case, it is also a mandatory rule that the Ice Storm should be moved, but if the dark side player notices, he has no obligation to remind the light side player. Given that this is a mandatory action, not a voluntary one, I'd say it is similar to noticing that the light side player forgot HIS OWN Ultimatum shield, but not having any obligation to remind him.

You may disagree, but that's my take.


Yes, the SW:CCG rules allow a player to benefit from cheating by stating that many missed actions (if intentional =cheating) have to remain missed if too much time has passed since the appropriate window for that action has elapsed. So what? Are you going to cheat?

If the player loses only 1 force from that same drain and then begins to take his own action do you remind him/her to lose more? Or do you cheat when it doesn't benefit you too?

Obviously we have gotten in to a realm of what exactly defines cheating in general and/or in SW:CCG and apparently even that is a gray area for many.
allstarz97 wrote:...and thematically, as everyone is referencing on this thread, why are people not mentioning the part where mace windu is crying like a little *, gets his hand cut off and then gets thrown out a window?

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by agnos »

agnos wrote:Here can be found the ruling in specific.
The following is a revision to Chapter 1, Section C of the AR.

Under Mandatory Actions

The following sentence: "Any time during that time frame (when the player is permitted to perform a top-level action), the player directed to perform the action may choose to initiate it (his opponent cannot compel him to do so at any particular time)."

On page 1-5 is considered stricken and replaced by the following:

"Any time during that time frame (when the player is permitted to perform a top-level action), the owner of the card mandating the action may choose to initiate it."

This change is to meant to show that mandatory actions on cards may be initiated by the owners of such cards. Note that if the owner of said card 'fails' to initiate such an action, that does NOT mean that the action is 'forgotten' or 'skipped.' It simply becomes an automatic action that occurs at the end of the specified timeframe.
3.2. Forgotten actions: The owner of a card has the responsibility to perform or enforce
any actions resulting from that card including any automatic actions. However, this does
not preclude their opponent from reminding them of their actions.
Examples:
•The Dark Side player has Visage Of The Emperor on the table. At the end of their turn,
it is their responsibility to make himself and their opponent lose 1 Force. However, the
Light Side player may remind the Dark Side player to perform this action.
•The Light Side player has Ice Storm on the table. During their control phase, it is their
responsibility to move Ice Storm to the next marker site. However, the Dark Side player
has no obligation to remind the Light Side player to do this.
•The Dark Side player has Battle Order on the table. During their control phase, they do
not use three Force but proceed to Force Drain their opponent at a site. Their opponent
can then remind them to use the three Force or else the drain may not be initiated.
These two are in direct conflict with one another.
I would like to point out that under current rules, missing/forgetting is actually against the rules. Intentionally allowing said actions to be 'forgotten' is cheating. Period. Automatic Actions must occur whether or not they are 'initiated' or not.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by mserisman »

Interesting read...

While the rules are important and the AR/Tournament Guides have detailed language that rivals the instructions for getting a Russian visa, I don't think the technicalities are the point here?

We all know the difference between someone who makes mistakes and misses cards, and we all know we need to pay attention to all our text and be prepared to remind our opponent.

But the real issue is intent.

What Aaron did was deliberate, practiced and a systemic strategy (from the deck choices and manipulation strategy, to the smooth placement of cards within a "shuffle") that was designed to cheat. If anyone truly doesn't grasp the difference between this and examples like forgetting Goo is on the table or something, then you have bigger problems.

What is not discussed here, and frankly we as a community lack, is how to handle accusations. When do you accuse of cheating, when do you remind someone, when do you play differently against certain people because you suspect/know they cheat like this, and when do you just refuse to play someone at all?

That would be an interesting discussion and I would love to get other's views on this. I will admit that I am not always clear myself what approach to take.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Steviegets112 »

mserisman wrote:Interesting read...

While the rules are important and the AR/Tournament Guides have detailed language that rivals the instructions for getting a Russian visa, I don't think the technicalities are the point here?

We all know the difference between someone who makes mistakes and misses cards, and we all know we need to pay attention to all our text and be prepared to remind our opponent.

But the real issue is intent.

What Aaron did was deliberate, practiced and a systemic strategy (from the deck choices and manipulation strategy, to the smooth placement of cards within a "shuffle") that was designed to cheat. If anyone truly doesn't grasp the difference between this and examples like forgetting Goo is on the table or something, then you have bigger problems.

What is not discussed here, and frankly we as a community lack, is how to handle accusations. When do you accuse of cheating, when do you remind someone, when do you play differently against certain people because you suspect/know they cheat like this, and when do you just refuse to play someone at all?

That would be an interesting discussion and I would love to get other's views on this. I will admit that I am not always clear myself what approach to take.

I suggest all my opponents refuse to play me at all. It's not like I've lost a match in 2013 anyways.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Clayton Atkin »

Steviegets112 wrote:
I suggest all my opponents refuse to play me at all. It's not like I've lost a match in 2013 anyways.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Steviegets112 »

Clayton Atkin wrote:
Steviegets112 wrote:
I suggest all my opponents refuse to play me at all. It's not like I've lost a match in 2013 anyways.
Baroni has become the "Money Mayweather" of SWCCG. Living the High Life, always talking *...but * us all, he backs it up.

Hahaha I knew there was I reason I loved you socal guys.

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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Shadow 14 »

mserisman wrote:Interesting read...

While the rules are important and the AR/Tournament Guides have detailed language that rivals the instructions for getting a Russian visa, I don't think the technicalities are the point here?

We all know the difference between someone who makes mistakes and misses cards, and we all know we need to pay attention to all our text and be prepared to remind our opponent.

But the real issue is intent.

What Aaron did was deliberate, practiced and a systemic strategy (from the deck choices and manipulation strategy, to the smooth placement of cards within a "shuffle") that was designed to cheat. If anyone truly doesn't grasp the difference between this and examples like forgetting Goo is on the table or something, then you have bigger problems.

What is not discussed here, and frankly we as a community lack, is how to handle accusations. When do you accuse of cheating, when do you remind someone, when do you play differently against certain people because you suspect/know they cheat like this, and when do you just refuse to play someone at all?

That would be an interesting discussion and I would love to get other's views on this. I will admit that I am not always clear myself what approach to take.
I totally agree with that. There is no question that a deliberate action as the one described above is not right.

The handling of accusations is actually described in the TR as rax explains above, and that is how I would handle this. Because accusations itself are good for nothing. And from what I read here it seems like the ones who would forget of the cards are the ones who are the first and loudest to shout out accusations towards others.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Shadow 14 »

I would like to give an example, since I was one of the guys who got this started (although the blame luckily seems to have shifted to Richards somehow). ;)

I was playing against Angelo the other day, and he was playing WYS (V). Both of us of course always try to play by the rules (meaning not forgetting anything deliberately). We pay for Battle Plan/Order, I always put the cards down when I deploy a character to Corellia, etc.

So, I deploy 4 cards with ability, and put 4 cards from hand down. One of the guys was Baron Fel. During his turn, I read my cards and notice that Fel is actually a Corellian, and say "Hey, look this guy's a Corellian! Just for future references". My next turn I deploy more guys, and we battle and do stuff, and then it's his turn again. During his deploy phase he puts a non-Corellian down and a card in Used pile, and asks "Did you put the 2 cards down in your turn?", and I said "No, I forgot!". And I honestly did. He looked very sad about it, and said something like "That sucks!". Yep, it does. I agree. Di I cheat though? No, I forgot. Can anybody tell the difference? Nope! Could some-one who never met me tell the difference? Even less! Would an accusation help? Not at all imho.
Was my forgetting worse than his, because it says something in the game text than instead of the lore? I don't think so, and I don't want to have such a discussion in tournament play. We did something wrong (unintentionally of course, although you could never prove it), and the phase where one should have reminded the other is long past... so tough luck!

3 turns later I noticed his Admirals Order in the corner, and ask "Do we both activate for systems we occupy with No Questions Asked or only you". I said "That sucks!" with a little smile. At that point I had a Barrier in hand, and no force left, and I did not activate for that card for at least 3 turns. I lost the battle, and likely the game because I could not Barrier a key card by the way. So, again... who is the bigger cheater, who can make better accusations (starting from who has the sadder face to who shouts louder), who has been more wrong, or more often?

My whole point is... I would NEVER put any cards down for WYSv one turn (!) later, and I would NEVER place my maintenance character out of play during YOUR turn, if I have forgotten in in mine! Why? Because I can NEVER know how many cards you have forgotten during the previous turns (otherwise I would have reminded you). And no amount of pointing fingers will change that. That doesn't mean I did it intentional, or would only do it if it affects me positively. There are rules for these situations (the one described above by rax/blarg), and I will play by those, and won't shed a tear if I forgot something. Accusations are useless.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Meto »

Calling back to something Justin was talking about: back in the Decipher days, cheating was absolutely condoned, culturally and by Decipher itself. They likened it to playing a Jedi mind trick or something ridiculous like that.

Even in playtesting, I'd try to get away with not losing to Visage, not paying for Battle Plan, etc.

Then I started doing GOOD playtesting. Where both players try to play as if all cards actually need to be played. If something is missed, you go out of your way to fix it because relying on mistakes is actually a very bad way to playtest. Instead of focusing on not losing to Visage, we focused on making good decisions. We stopped forgetting stuff, etc. I just learned better habits.

All of a sudden I started placing at non-local events. Coincidence? I don't think so. Playing correctly just made me a better player. I still make mistakes, I still forget cards, etc., but it is much less often and my gameplans no longer involve my opponent making errors.

So yeah, Mike Richards, I'm going to call you out. You've been on the verge of being a contender for final days of tournaments for a long time. Want to make the next step? Knock it off with the cheap tricks and just play the game better.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by CategoryOneGames.com »

I haven't seen anyone bring up "Feeling for V cards". I find this an issue since it is so easy to do. Not only can you feel regular V cards but especially full card length V cards. If you know how many you have in your deck and you are shuffling or touching the bottom card of your deck when you pick up to activate, it is easy to tell what it is that you have there on the bottom of a pile.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by Shadow 14 »

CategoryOneGames.com wrote:I haven't seen anyone bring up "Feeling for V cards". I find this an issue since it is so easy to do. Not only can you feel regular V cards but especially full card length V cards. If you know how many you have in your deck and you are shuffling or touching the bottom card of your deck when you pick up to activate, it is easy to tell what it is that you have there on the bottom of a pile.
Now, THIS is what I would call cheating! I wouldn't do that.
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Re: Everyone who is going to worlds please read:

Post by gogolen »

CategoryOneGames.com wrote:I haven't seen anyone bring up "Feeling for V cards". I find this an issue since it is so easy to do. Not only can you feel regular V cards but especially full card length V cards. If you know how many you have in your deck and you are shuffling or touching the bottom card of your deck when you pick up to activate, it is easy to tell what it is that you have there on the bottom of a pile.
This was a much bigger issues 6-8 years ago when so few of them were in decks. But now I feel like at least 50% of any deck I build are V-cards. Is that an Escape Pod in my hand, or one of my 4 Chewie Enrageds, etc...
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