Light/dark win breakdown

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by gogolen »

Blarg wrote:One thing I've noticed is that while DS has many different kinds of decks (Mains, Scum, Walkers, Clouds, ROPS) that all have to be dealt with in very different ways, LS pretty much just has WYSv and Mains. So most DS decks only really need two different gameplans, while LS decks need to be able to deal with a lot more things. Note that even if you don't classify Communing as a mains deck, most gameplans against Communing are very similar to those against mains decks.

More options for LS would mean that DS has to be more flexible, and that would lower the power level of DS decks.
This I agree with completely- seeing things that have different strategies, like WYS or Speeders or randomness like DBO/EBO get a boost would create more LS deck diversity, which would force DS to behave much differently. QMC got a little boost and that may end up being more popular in the future, but Emil told me at Worlds he had to shelf his QMC deck because of how bad it loses to Slavers.

I feel like DS has 7-8 solid options that have a lot of variety. (HD-v/ASM/Assassins, ROPS, Walkers, Spice, Scum, CPI). LS is WYS-v scrubs and just 4-6 different mains platforms with the same 40 cards of characters and location pullers and high destiny recyclable cards (MWYHL, TRM, TIGIH, Hyperdrive, WYS-v Endor, Profit, Communing). You could even throw Scoundrels in as a mains style deck, but at least that one has a few more diverse cards in it.

So maybe the full set of 9.1 will help level this back out and give some other LS strategies a chance to be competitive again.


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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by qasur »

Honestly, why was DBO never fixed like ROps? Having a platform like that for LS would make Spice TIEs hard to win if they shutdown their ability to drain (Menace Fades + flip side drain reduction).

That's not even taking into consideration that DBO uses Squadrons + Organized Attack, which can attack the Clouds very well.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by 3MW0J8 »

qasur wrote:Honestly, why was DBO never fixed like ROps? Having a platform like that for LS would make Spice TIEs hard to win if they shutdown their ability to drain (Menace Fades + flip side drain reduction).

Lol, second sentence answers the first. Men Fades + flip doesn't just shut down TIEs ... it shuts down EVERYthing.
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by SolaGratia »

3MW0J8 wrote:
qasur wrote:Honestly, why was DBO never fixed like ROps? Having a platform like that for LS would make Spice TIEs hard to win if they shutdown their ability to drain (Menace Fades + flip side drain reduction).

Lol, second sentence answers the first. Men Fades + flip doesn't just shut down TIEs ... it shuts down EVERYthing.
I second this plus ROps has the shield that shuts down a lot of the flip side text.

Although, I actually played someone at Alderaan Regionals and they didn't play the shield on me, I was so not used to that I had to reread the benefits of it :P

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by Hayes »

Dark going first lends itself greatly to it's ability to play a set up type platform (like HD, Walkers, Rops, Big blue back in the day). So dark just has to streamline it's pulls knowing that typically they are a turn ahead. That's why throne room has always been viable and why at many points in the games history light has been forced to be more reactive. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it just means any light deck that wants to set up something more elaborate has to have a way or mechanic that helps them overcome that deficit at some point in the game. Like hidden base being able to cancel drains and forcing the dark player to pay to draw, or like wysvs ability to reduce damage.

What people are seeing in the current environment is a couple really efficient dark decks that really capitalize on that advantage. This is also the reason Justin's light deck was such a good Meta call.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by qasur »

3MW0J8 wrote:
qasur wrote:Honestly, why was DBO never fixed like ROps? Having a platform like that for LS would make Spice TIEs hard to win if they shutdown their ability to drain (Menace Fades + flip side drain reduction).

Lol, second sentence answers the first. Men Fades + flip doesn't just shut down TIEs ... it shuts down EVERYthing.
True enough. However, if DBO was given a site to help its activation, and it canceled Menace Fades, what about then?

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by allstarz97 »

There's also way more blowout cards for ds than ls. Reegesk and he hasn't come back yet shoot to the top of my mind, and while there is a pretty good counter to he hasn't come back yet, reegesk is something the ds just randomly has in their back pockets.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by allstarz97 »

Also, there are some absurd set ups for ds (hoth and slavers of course). But the endor shield + whatever pulls the locations in HDv + endor is sooooo absurdly streamlined.

If I was on design and suggested strike planning (v) which let me pull admirals and general, limited generation at endor for my opponenets unless they played eops, and opg use two force to deploy endor I'm sure that card would never make it past round 1 of the cutting room floor. Dark can basically start any game it wants with a 10 card hand because of endor shield. And it's not really endor shield that is the problem, if endor shield wasn't around power of the hutt would be more played... and so on...it's just that ls has only one card like it and it's the very sub-optimal strike planning.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by qasur »

To be fair, LS had Mon Mothma V until she received errata. She was not in every deck, but as an ability 4 character, she definitely showed more often than not.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by Airdog2003 »

I didn't play vs Chu's spice ties deck so perhaps someone can fill me in. Do the new GunShips allow LS to mess with Spice Ties enough to make a difference? I realize one can point to Chu's record with the deck and say "obviously not" but W/L doesn't tell the full story.

When we tested Gunship in D&D a couple PTers threw 2x Gunship into their Communing deck and saved their Use the Forces, Woklings, etc to keep getting them back and continually harass DS. Coupled with the new pullable LS POTF effect that helps mitigate spice decks looping cards and cards like Lando/Lady Luck, it seems as if LS decks have a much better chance to interact at cloud sectors.

So is the success of Chu's spice ties deck more a function of (a) it being a good meta call (like EBO and HB sometimes are), (b) the deck being OP'd or (c) LS not having the tools to deal with it?

I feel like players are adapting their LS decks to account for stuff like SYCFA and Spice Ties that normally would dominate decks relying on H1/Ackbar. Both LS decks Desai played are good examples of this.
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by allstarz97 »

Airdog2003 wrote:I didn't play vs Chu's spice ties deck so perhaps someone can fill me in. Do the new GunShips allow LS to mess with Spice Ties enough to make a difference? I realize one can point to Chu's record with the deck and say "obviously not" but W/L doesn't tell the full story.

When we tested Gunship in D&D a couple PTers threw 2x Gunship into their Communing deck and saved their Use the Forces, Woklings, etc to keep getting them back and continually harass DS. Coupled with the new pullable LS POTF effect that helps mitigate spice decks looping cards and cards like Lando/Lady Luck, it seems as if LS decks have a much better chance to interact at cloud sectors.

So is the success of Chu's spice ties deck more a function of (a) it being a good meta call (like EBO and HB sometimes are), (b) the deck being OP'd or (c) LS not having the tools to deal with it?

I feel like players are adapting their LS decks to account for stuff like SYCFA and Spice Ties that normally would dominate decks relying on H1/Ackbar. Both LS decks Desai played are good examples of this.
The spice ties deck we built used saber 4 + jango to react for free(or for 2 if professor out). So, vehicle comes down, we react, then all power. We are 15 power and essentially 3 destinies to 9 power. Chu said multiple people throughout the weekend had to houjix their own battle.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by allstarz97 »

Airdog2003 wrote:I didn't play vs Chu's spice ties deck so perhaps someone can fill me in. Do the new GunShips allow LS to mess with Spice Ties enough to make a difference? I realize one can point to Chu's record with the deck and say "obviously not" but W/L doesn't tell the full story.

When we tested Gunship in D&D a couple PTers threw 2x Gunship into their Communing deck and saved their Use the Forces, Woklings, etc to keep getting them back and continually harass DS. Coupled with the new pullable LS POTF effect that helps mitigate spice decks looping cards and cards like Lando/Lady Luck, it seems as if LS decks have a much better chance to interact at cloud sectors.

So is the success of Chu's spice ties deck more a function of (a) it being a good meta call (like EBO and HB sometimes are), (b) the deck being OP'd or (c) LS not having the tools to deal with it?

I feel like players are adapting their LS decks to account for stuff like SYCFA and Spice Ties that normally would dominate decks relying on H1/Ackbar. Both LS decks Desai played are good examples of this.
During our testing, we said multiple times that the gunships would actually be helpful for our deck, because people would think spice ties was "dead". The actual vehicle is like a non-factor.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by Hayes »

The vehicle is mostly effective vs the cannon dependent builds. Somewhat effective vs the black squadron build. Not very effective vs the ktod saber build.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by mryellow »

allstarz97 wrote:The spice ties deck we built used saber 4 + jango to react for free(or for 2 if professor out). So, vehicle comes down, we react, then all power. We are 15 power and essentially 3 destinies to 9 power. Chu said multiple people throughout the weekend had to houjix their own battle.
Houjixing your own battle is really funny. Everyone should have it done to them sometime.

The gunships are good but like Desai said, they provide a false sense of security. Even if you somehow cancel the react (Sense, Rebel Barrier, whatever) you're still 7 power (with the all power) and a destiny and if you're at the Storm Clouds, LS total battle destiny is -1. So it's not like you take a beating. Topdeck a few and apply beats the next turn.

The Saber Squad TIEs really pack a punch. Unless you're geared to beat it (multiple starfighters, multiple gunships, Senses/Barriers) it's incredibly tough to play around them because of the pure damage potential. Drains of 2 + 2, a ping of 1 and a Spice stack is no laughing matter. 6 sustained damage is hard to obtain in any form, much less one so non-interactive against a wide number of decks. I can't name another deck that can so easily get 6 damage a turn so easily and be immune to so much.
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by agnos »

JarJarDrinks wrote:
agnos wrote:
allstarz97 wrote:...and I think that's basically the problem with the deck, and why some of the top players stayed away from it, when it is firing on all cylynders, it feels amazing, when it gets derailed, it feels awful. So the "Normal" ways a swccg deck can win are not apparent here. The deck can not dig itself out of a hole to save it's life, but it is also very hard to disrupt if it got a strong setup. It basically takes the first three turns of the game, and magnifies them. If they first three turns went your way you win, if they didn't you lose.
This unfortunately is what SW is now for the most part.
Maybe in 2005. I'm pretty sure most people have been saying the exact opposite for a while now. That the game is slower than it's ever been.
Considering how many twix pullers and activation platforms are available, this is blatantly false. By turn 2 your deck should be activating at least 8-10 and often you can get your whole activation base out on turn 1. No missed pulls often means even more. The game right now is comprised of 3 phases: setup, board position and endgame. DS right now has far stronger early phases to the game whereas LS is much better in the endgame position generally. DS gets to go first and has the best packages to try and stall the game into mid-game position.
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by pete6982 »

qasur wrote:
3MW0J8 wrote:
qasur wrote:Honestly, why was DBO never fixed like ROps? Having a platform like that for LS would make Spice TIEs hard to win if they shutdown their ability to drain (Menace Fades + flip side drain reduction).

Lol, second sentence answers the first. Men Fades + flip doesn't just shut down TIEs ... it shuts down EVERYthing.
True enough. However, if DBO was given a site to help its activation, and it canceled Menace Fades, what about then?
Or maybe make an effect helper for DBO that is virtual Menace Fades (unique).
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by Shadow 14 »

gogolen wrote:
Blarg wrote:One thing I've noticed is that while DS has many different kinds of decks (Mains, Scum, Walkers, Clouds, ROPS) that all have to be dealt with in very different ways, LS pretty much just has WYSv and Mains. So most DS decks only really need two different gameplans, while LS decks need to be able to deal with a lot more things. Note that even if you don't classify Communing as a mains deck, most gameplans against Communing are very similar to those against mains decks.

More options for LS would mean that DS has to be more flexible, and that would lower the power level of DS decks.
This I agree with completely- seeing things that have different strategies, like WYS or Speeders or randomness like DBO/EBO get a boost would create more LS deck diversity, which would force DS to behave much differently. QMC got a little boost and that may end up being more popular in the future, but Emil told me at Worlds he had to shelf his QMC deck because of how bad it loses to Slavers.

I feel like DS has 7-8 solid options that have a lot of variety. (HD-v/ASM/Assassins, ROPS, Walkers, Spice, Scum, CPI). LS is WYS-v scrubs and just 4-6 different mains platforms with the same 40 cards of characters and location pullers and high destiny recyclable cards (MWYHL, TRM, TIGIH, Hyperdrive, WYS-v Endor, Profit, Communing). You could even throw Scoundrels in as a mains style deck, but at least that one has a few more diverse cards in it.

So maybe the full set of 9.1 will help level this back out and give some other LS strategies a chance to be competitive again.
I also agree with both of them 100%. The totally different kind of DS decks make it almost impossible to prepare for. And some of the DS platforms are so solid, that you have no idea what you're really up against. I played 4 DIFFERENT Spice decks at Worlds (including all tourneys). Ties with heavy Tallon Rolling (Emil style), Saber Ties, Spice Mains, and Tanks for God's sake. They were all strong builds. I was prepared for the platform somewhat, but it's tough to get all the counters/protection together to go there.

V 9.1 should probably be an all-LS deck. ;)
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by The Smoking Gungan »

My least favorite time of the swccg year. Something other than mains, wysv, or rops did okay at worlds, so that means we gotta errata something, right?

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by JosephPhillips »

It has always seemed to me that one of the big issues contributing to lack of balance between LS & DS is that DS has so many more themes to utilize (capturing, blowing stuff up, more vehicles, enslaving, bounty-hunting, freezing, mega-creatures, force lightning, spice, etc) while there are not very many themes or features to the game that are exclusive to LS.

This inevitably means that variety for LS will always be a challenge. Over the last coule of years we've seen some great attempts at evening this up with Scoundrels, communing and COT, but in the process WYS and Profit are not the power houses they once were. Not saying they need to be, but maybe 1-2 more viable platforms for lightside would be helpful? Or maybe tweaking a few current platforms so they are more playable? I love variety, but it's skewed in favor of DS right now.
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by kryptofis »

The Smoking Gungan wrote:My least favorite time of the swccg year. Something other than mains, wysv, or rops did okay at worlds, so that means we gotta errata something, right?
Don't get all dramatic :) You're on CBT.

BTW, I think what Gogs said somwhere is true, speeding up LS is not the way to go. Versatile bullet cards are better, then errata, then power creep.
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