Light/dark win breakdown

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allstarz97
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by allstarz97 »

kryptofis wrote:
The Smoking Gungan wrote:My least favorite time of the swccg year. Something other than mains, wysv, or rops did okay at worlds, so that means we gotta errata something, right?
Don't get all dramatic :) You're on CBT.

BTW, I think what Gogs said somwhere is true, speeding up LS is not the way to go. Versatile bullet cards are better, then errata, then power creep.
Bullets are weak IMHO... Mainly cuz a. They have to be played, and b. they have to work. Ni Chu bah is a great bullet to revo and goo, but it's good cuz it's a good card. If it didn't have the plus 1 activation it would be barely played. Bullets need to have good text (pull sites, help generation, etc)



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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by kryptofis »

Totally agree. That's why I said we need versatile bullets. I could've expressed myself better, but that's what I meant.
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SolaGratia
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by SolaGratia »

Bullets didn't address the point many of you have made: DS has a variety of strong platforms making it hard for 1LS deck to address. I'd like to see more variety in the LS meta to shake up the DS options rather than a bunch of bullets that I now have to play.

I think a strong LS vehicle platform that isn't killed by DS playing internal sites would rock slavers, spice, walkers, ROps,ect...

9.1 should have this and gunship platform huge potential against a variety of DS decks.

But hey I am just a returning play you all probably understand the complexities and viability more than I.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by Hunter »

agnos wrote:
allstarz97 wrote:...and I think that's basically the problem with the deck, and why some of the top players stayed away from it, when it is firing on all cylynders, it feels amazing, when it gets derailed, it feels awful. So the "Normal" ways a swccg deck can win are not apparent here. The deck can not dig itself out of a hole to save it's life, but it is also very hard to disrupt if it got a strong setup. It basically takes the first three turns of the game, and magnifies them. If they first three turns went your way you win, if they didn't you lose.
This unfortunately is what SW is now for the most part.
And it's been that way for a few years now. I read what Desai then said in disagreement, but as long as "first three turns of the game" means 3 turns for each player, then I don't believe he's really thought things through. Once each player has had 3 turns, Desai should be able to look at the board, look at both hands, look through both lost piles, and know who is going to win. Because I think I could do it very reliably too. And if each player has had 3 turns, and he CAN'T tell who is going to win...the game is probably going to time.

If "first three turns of the game" did NOT mean 3 turns for each player, and instead means that one of the players hasn't even had his second turn yet, that would be different.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by Hunter »

Blarg wrote:One thing I've noticed is that while DS has many different kinds of decks (Mains, Scum, Walkers, Clouds, ROPS) that all have to be dealt with in very different ways, LS pretty much just has WYSv and Mains. So most DS decks only really need two different gameplans, while LS decks need to be able to deal with a lot more things. Note that even if you don't classify Communing as a mains deck, most gameplans against Communing are very similar to those against mains decks.

More options for LS would mean that DS has to be more flexible, and that would lower the power level of DS decks.
If we assume that everything in your first paragraph is true, then the solution in your second paragraph is as bad as it could possibly be.

You're saying that the Dark Side has numerous different deck options that are all powerful, but that cannot be defended against in the same manner. They work in different ways, they attack the LS player from different angles. The cards and strategies that help against one will not help against another.

In essence, the Light Side is buried under a ton of RPS.

So, how to level the playing field? By giving the Light Side more deck options and variety as well? So that the Dark Side similarly must try to defend against numerous threats that work in different ways, and attack from different angles?

In essence, you suggest that the Dark Side also be buried under a ton of RPS, just like Light Side is.

That's the exact opposite of what should happen. Top-Tier Light Side options should not be increased in strength, and especially should not be increased in number. Instead, Top-Tier Dark Side options could perhaps be decreased in strength. But most especially, they should be decreased in number.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by RybackStun »

Hunter wrote:
Blarg wrote:One thing I've noticed is that while DS has many different kinds of decks (Mains, Scum, Walkers, Clouds, ROPS) that all have to be dealt with in very different ways, LS pretty much just has WYSv and Mains. So most DS decks only really need two different gameplans, while LS decks need to be able to deal with a lot more things. Note that even if you don't classify Communing as a mains deck, most gameplans against Communing are very similar to those against mains decks.

More options for LS would mean that DS has to be more flexible, and that would lower the power level of DS decks.
If we assume that everything in your first paragraph is true, then the solution in your second paragraph is as bad as it could possibly be.

You're saying that the Dark Side has numerous different deck options that are all powerful, but that cannot be defended against in the same manner. They work in different ways, they attack the LS player from different angles. The cards and strategies that help against one will not help against another.

In essence, the Light Side is buried under a ton of RPS.

So, how to level the playing field? By giving the Light Side more deck options and variety as well? So that the Dark Side similarly must try to defend against numerous threats that work in different ways, and attack from different angles?

In essence, you suggest that the Dark Side also be buried under a ton of RPS, just like Light Side is.

That's the exact opposite of what should happen. Top-Tier Light Side options should not be increased in strength, and especially should not be increased in number. Instead, Top-Tier Dark Side options could perhaps be decreased in strength. But most especially, they should be decreased in number.
As someone who has played Card games for years (not specifically this one, but many others) reducing the amount of effective decks doesn't solve anything, it just creates a stagnant meta until new cards hit the field.

RPS formats aren't bad, especially when it becomes RPSLS. I'd rather have 5-6 decks for each side that are good to play than 2.

But from what I can tell the format is Rock beats Scissors AND Paper, but DS Rock also beats LS Rock. That isn't a good format for the game.

But this is just my observation, more experienced players will be able to dissect the problem better.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by Blarg »

RPS implies that the bad matchups are unwinnable (or at least really really bad). I don't feel that is the case at the moment, other than the fact that LS decks are worse than DS decks. Its not really about having to include direct bullets, but about sub-par card choices. You often want to play Lady Luck in a deck that you wouldn't otherwise want it in, or Corellian Slip, so that you can interact more with a particular deck. For example, in my WYSv I had:
It's A Trap
Obi in Radiant 7
Mace, Master of the Order
Evacuation Control
Corellian Slip
Desperate Reach & Houjix Combo

None of those are bad cards, but there are cards which I could have used instead which are better in the abstract.

For DS, I had:
AT-AT Commander
Victory x2

And the Victory is stretching it a bit, because its still a really good ship even without the WYSv stuff.

If done in the right way, increasing the number of LS strategies isn't going to cause RPS. It is going to force DS to make the same kind of sub-par card choices.

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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by Shadow 14 »

Blarg wrote:RPS implies that the bad matchups are unwinnable (or at least really really bad). I don't feel that is the case at the moment, other than the fact that LS decks are worse than DS decks. Its not really about having to include direct bullets, but about sub-par card choices. You often want to play Lady Luck in a deck that you wouldn't otherwise want it in, or Corellian Slip, so that you can interact more with a particular deck. For example, in my WYSv I had:
It's A Trap
Obi in Radiant 7
Mace, Master of the Order
Evacuation Control
Corellian Slip
Desperate Reach & Houjix Combo

None of those are bad cards, but there are cards which I could have used instead which are better in the abstract.

For DS, I had:
AT-AT Commander
Victory x2

And the Victory is stretching it a bit, because its still a really good ship even without the WYSv stuff.

If done in the right way, increasing the number of LS strategies isn't going to cause RPS. It is going to force DS to make the same kind of sub-par card choices.
I agree. It's not the same for the LS. Even though Obi in Radiant 7 and Mace are "good anyway", you often have to sacrifice a better version of them to be prepared against certain cards.

If you played Walkers, then the AT-AT Commander is not really a "squeeze in" either, since he works well with your deck anynway. And like you said... Victory is always gold.
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by Shadow 14 »

In my opinion Walkers and Spice TIEs are so different from other decks, that you cannot easily "tech" against them. Back in the day Speeders were a nemesis for Walkers. They may still be, but since Speeders don't win against other decks (especially not in time), there is no incentive to play them.

I still have a Vcard open and thought about this...

mod edit: no dream cards

I decided against doing a bullet card for my own vcard, but still think it's a good idea.
What do you guys think? Power creep, good bullet, or what? ;)

(uh oh, here comes)
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TB
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by TB »

Yes, dark is sligtly stronger ATM, but i seriously dont think LS sucks as hard as people say. Wys v, chewmmuning, TIGIH and many other decks are so strong. Cards like lando UH, the new LS potf/imp city nerfer and the gunship wing are already helping and who knows what else the new set will bring.

It simply cant be true that i am the only one here who thinks the game is in a great state. Games are fun, meta is versatile and many decks are doing/can do well. Look at the top decks at Worlds. What is there not to like? So many original builds. Emils troopers, Chus tie deck, shannons reboot of the communing speeders concept, slavers bringing back scum in a big way but being far from unbeatable, baronis mwyhl (looks so tight) and lots of other great decks.

All i see is creativity in deck building: exciting new options and solid old ones being reinvented.

Seriously: what is the problem?
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Re: Light/dark win breakdown

Post by allstarz97 »

TB wrote:Yes, dark is sligtly stronger ATM, but i seriously dont think LS sucks as hard as people say. Wys v, chewmmuning, TIGIH and many other decks are so strong. Cards like lando UH, the new LS potf/imp city nerfer and the gunship wing are already helping and who knows what else the new set will bring.

It simply cant be true that i am the only one here who thinks the game is in a great state. Games are fun, meta is versatile and many decks are doing/can do well. Look at the top decks at Worlds. What is there not to like? So many original builds. Emils troopers, Chus tie deck, shannons reboot of the communing speeders concept, slavers bringing back scum in a big way but being far from unbeatable, baronis mwyhl (looks so tight) and lots of other great decks.

All i see is creativity in deck building: exciting new options and solid old ones being reinvented.

Seriously: what is the problem?
The consensus is that the sides are unbalanced and that's backed up by win %s on day 2.

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