Reset Event Update

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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by Hayes »

Isn't there a thread already advocating how dumb it is for a strategy to be predicated on bonuses received by stacking guys at a non-bg location?

Civil and AAA will see less play when Senate and Combat see less play. The same way Tarkin's Bounty and Scrambled don't see much play in legacy. Right now senate is a viable strategy so it makes sense more people are teching for it. Once set 1 comes out ROPS and DBO will be viable, so combat will be less prevalent, so Civil and AAA will not be as necessary.

Welcome to the metagame-game. It is what it is until new cards change the dynamic once more.



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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by Hayes »

spideyguy0 wrote:LS Senate without Mon Mothma is terrible
Disagree.

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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by Cam Solusar »

Hayes wrote:Isn't there a thread already advocating how dumb it is for a strategy to be predicated on bonuses received by stacking guys at a non-bg location?

Civil and AAA will see less play when Senate and Combat see less play. The same way Tarkin's Bounty and Scrambled don't see much play in legacy. Right now senate is a viable strategy so it makes sense more people are teching for it. Once set 1 comes out ROPS and DBO will be viable, so combat will be less prevalent, so Civil and AAA will not be as necessary.

Welcome to the metagame-game. It is what it is until new cards change the dynamic once more.
The problem with Civil/AAA v is that they're not included in decks as senate counters. They're included because they retrieve characters for initiating battles, and they just happen to have senate and combat counters on them. I don't think a lack of senate in a meta will change a Huntdown players decision on whether or not to use AAA v.
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by AnakinSolo »

Cam Solusar wrote:
The problem with Civil/AAA v is that they're not included in decks as senate counters. They're included because they retrieve characters for initiating battles, and they just happen to have senate and combat counters on them. I don't think a lack of senate in a meta will change a Huntdown players decision on whether or not to use AAA v.
disagree.
They are senate/combat counters that are also useful
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by mikefrench »

yah if senate/combat were unplayable, no one would ever play aaa v/mirror.
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by mikefrench »

i mean, their pre-redux versions were insane, and everyone played them, but they let you activate 1 and retrieve a guy INTO HAND when you battled (and it wasn't retrieval so it circumvented shields).
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by Kevbozzz »

mikefrench wrote:yah if senate/combat were unplayable, no one would ever play aaa v/mirror.
No one? Cam just said he uses them primarily for their other function. You might think that's a poor choice on his part, but clearly people will still use the cards for their retrieval purpose alone. Hell, I used AAAv in slavers just for the retrieval. Granted that's no longer a deck, but other decks might do the same. Certainly the amount of AAA/CV would fall off dramatically if people weren't worried about senate/combat, but they won't go away entirely.
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by Shadow 14 »

mr007agent wrote:
Shadow 14 wrote:
Throdo wrote:Props to the PC on making a senate counter that is getting people to cut political effects. That is a big achievement :-D
Obviously totally disagree on this one (Chris Menzel as year long senate player, no Euro Emp here) :)
The shields would be super, if all the other counters were removed from the base set.
It is easy to include Civil Disorder v and Evacuation Control v in every deck, and we have already seen a couple of Leias take out Lott Dodd. All are good cards for other purposes, too. And they lock down Senate completly.

So, I pay 9-14 force fir my senators to flip in round 3 or so and have all my political effects out by turn whatever.Till then one will be cancelled each turn and 2 are useless 3 times a game, as well as my destiny +x senators.

Evacuation Control v and Ability x 3 v HAVE to go. Then the shields are ok.
I am looking the other way bc I think we have too many shields. Do you think Civil and Ability x3 is enough to curb senate without the shields? Or maybe have a cost to suspend a political effect?
I think they are absolutely enough. In fact, with only a limited number of decks to tech against, I would expect every deck to play them. Especially since they target multiple decks and have general useful purposes (retrival and card drawing)..

I always found Ax3 and CD v way too much overkill with the +2 deploy. We counter cards that make broken mains +2 but its ok for low senators. Deploy +1 would have been balanced.

Evac Control and Imperial Justice are terrible cards and should never be in the reset as they are.
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The shields are actually ok. Especially since they block the real NPE, the card removal from hand. They also offer the player a strategic choice, as Casey mentions above. Leave the shields but kill the 2 other cards. They make it a NPE for the senate player. ;)
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by JediJer »

Shadow 14 wrote:They make it a NPE for the senate player
Well I think some players feel that it's an NPE for the non-senate player without them, so... :???

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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by Shadow 14 »

JediJer wrote:
Shadow 14 wrote:They make it a NPE for the senate player
Well I think some players feel that it's an NPE for the non-senate player without them, so... :???

Those players (as always :roll: ) simply hate everything about Senate and shoot blindly at anything with a Coruscant Symbol on it without really analyzing what is actually wrong with the platform, and what is totally fine. Lemme try…

1) The deploy cost of the senators

Again, +2 is way overkill for those senators. Bad Feeling Have I and Goo Nee Tay have been mostly negated, and they targeted characters that are way more broken than ANY senator. Broken Fetts are still ok by virtual Molator and Ni Chuba Na? after the reset (unless I’m missing something), but Senators are soooo bad, they need to be super expensive.
If anyone thinks that it still sets up too fast (even with all the counters) then go for deploy +1. That’s balanced. Deploy +2 is OVERKILL.


2) The Force Drain Canceller Political Effect

This effect has always been totally ok imho. You have effects that cancel force drains by putting Jawas, Imperials, TIEs and whatnot on effects and they are all fine. Even with multiple Amidalas THIS effect would be ok! As long as you can Alter it, it’s totally ok.


3) The Force Drain Adder Political Effect

That one is not ok, because it adds 2 to a drain, and not many cards do that. Make it add +1 and it is ok. Any lightsaber, Proficiency and tons of locations do that. Plus 2 = not ok. Plus 1 = ok.


4) The Battle Destiny Modifier Political Effects

They are overpowered and that’s what makes it a NPE. A swing of 6 is too much (although it is a 4 card combo, and you can do MUCH more damage with other 4 card combos). Anyway, I get it. Personally, I think +1 on each effect would be too weak, and +2 would be balanced. Maybe this would need to be tested, but if you look at how many cards add or subtract 2 from battles (space Vader, enraged Chewie) or cause a 4 power swing by firing weapons etc., then I believe +2/-2 is justified.


5) The Drawing from Opponents Hand

That is the real, real bad NPE, because it can wreak in so many ways. Funnily enough, with all the blind Senate hate that has been on from day one, this seemed to be considered just fine for some reason. The Rebel Senate deck was created, and this portion has been left intact. WTF?? Removing one card (for paying 3 force) would even be ok imo, but I can understand if people want this gone completely).


6) Other stuff

Multiple Amidalas on the effects are of course not meant to be. She’s broken on the battle destiny modifiers (even at +/-2) and would be broken on the force drain adder at +2 (she’s ok at +1).
Palpatine is very strong, but guess what… he’s the friggin Emperor. He’s the most powerful guy out there, and should be strong. The Emperor (V) is at least as strong, and he can kill the LS Senators again, now that Mon Mothma is gone. LS Senate does suck! You can even start the Emperor against it.
Nearly all the virtual senate counters remain after the reset. Leia can remove any senator. Emperor can grill them. I believe these things are ok, but Ability x3/Civil Disorder and Imperial Justice/Evacuation Control are waaayyy too much on top of the shield.



The synergy of the deck is good. That’s why it would be a top tier deck, if handled right (like the Walker Objective the third time around), but it doesn’t have to be a total NPE, or does it have to be killed completely. Same as Walkers, WYS and Watto. Tune it down, but don’t kill it.

If you ask me as a year long senate player (and against senate player) what I would consider balanced, then I would propose something like that…

SHIELD or STARTABLE EFFECT

Plays on table. While you have 12 or fewer cards in hand, opponent may not remove more than 1 card from your hand (except with Monnok). Senators are deploy +1. Battle destiny and force drain modifiers on political effects -1. Amidala on political effects count as a senator.


That would make Senate balanced in my opinion. Add 2 to a battle destiny, subtract 2 from a battle destiny, add 1 to a force drain, and be able to cancel a force drain per turn.

Again, the suspend once per turn is also ok as long as Ability x 3 and Imperial Justice (and Counterparts) are killed. It leaves you with a strategic choice, but it leaves more room for manipulation (similar to shield busting).

My 2 cents.
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by darkjediknight11 »

chris, can you cross-post this to Reset Discussion please?

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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by allstarz97 »

Chris, while your points sort of make sense, you are much too dismissive of how powerful the senators are. R3 fett or toonbuck toora... which one is more powerful? Toonbuck and it's not remotely close. Lott dodd or any other card ever printed by decipher? Lott Dodd and again it's not remotely close.

Think about it this way, ds senate is the most powerful deck every contructed out of decipher made cards, so therefore the vset must include powerful answers to senate, ds senate in particular. However, the first series senate bullets, while very bluntly strong counters to senate, did not stop it's dominance (Leia v, scrambled, for luck v, atromech shortage v, etc). Civil disorder v, evac control and simple tricks eventually stopped senate from being the power that it once was but during a reset it is very important we keep the deck to an underpowered form.

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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by Shadow 14 »

darkjediknight11 wrote:chris, can you cross-post this to Reset Discussion please?
I just did it. Please let me know, if you Need it somewhere else, or if that was ok.
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Re: Reset Event Update

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allstarz97 wrote:Chris, while your points sort of make sense, you are much too dismissive of how powerful the senators are. R3 fett or toonbuck toora... which one is more powerful? Toonbuck and it's not remotely close. Lott dodd or any other card ever printed by decipher? Lott Dodd and again it's not remotely close.

Think about it this way, ds senate is the most powerful deck every contructed out of decipher made cards, so therefore the vset must include powerful answers to senate, ds senate in particular. However, the first series senate bullets, while very bluntly strong counters to senate, did not stop it's dominance (Leia v, scrambled, for luck v, atromech shortage v, etc). Civil disorder v, evac control and simple tricks eventually stopped senate from being the power that it once was but during a reset it is very important we keep the deck to an underpowered form.
I don't mind powering it down, Justin, but the combination of all 3 cards (shield, Civil Disorder v and Evaculation Control v) destroys it completely. Even you as a player said you would play it with NO political effects and that cannot be right.

In my eyes the senators are more like effects. I know that some are super strong, but are they really stronger than other cards? You say that Lott Dodd is the best card printed by Decipher, but then I argue that it is Keeping The Empire Out Forever. Both need the objective and locations to set up, but KTEOF has no deploy cost (well, maybe more conditions instead), cannot be placed out of play or killed and works EVERY turn.

I know how strong senate is, and that all the comparisons here are a bit off. The question is, would YOU really play Senate with the Chance that your opponent has all 3 counters against you? I certainly wouldn't, and my opponents will certainly play it (they do now, they will just add the shield). The Senator texts are not THAT strong. Hell, they are not even destiny +2 or 3 with Evac Control out.

Make it balanced, make it playable, but don't kill it.
If these cards are in there and Senate is unplayable, what is the next step... revoduxing them again?
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by jcb213 »

spideyguy0 wrote:I got bailed out by Senate going 3-0.
Shadow 14 wrote:Make it balanced, make it playable, but don't kill it.
If these cards are in there and Senate is unplayable
I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements. Casey went 3-0 with a deck that Chris is calling unplayable because of the counters. Either Casey got lucky and didn't face Civil Disorder v and/or Justice v, or Senate isn't unplayable even with the counters. So which is it?

Casey, did people play Civil Disorder v and/or Justice v against you in your senate games?
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by spideyguy0 »

jcb213 wrote:
spideyguy0 wrote:I got bailed out by Senate going 3-0.
Shadow 14 wrote:Make it balanced, make it playable, but don't kill it.
If these cards are in there and Senate is unplayable
I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements. Casey went 3-0 with a deck that Chris is calling unplayable because of the counters. Either Casey got lucky and didn't face Civil Disorder v and/or Justice v, or Senate isn't unplayable even with the counters. So which is it?

Casey, did people play Civil Disorder v and/or Justice v against you in your senate games?
My first opponent only played the shield, my 2nd didn't play the shield but started Civil and then used Leia on Lott Dod on turn 3 or 4. He may also have gotten Evac out late game, can't remember. My 3rd opponent (Chris) started Civil, played the shield, and placed Lott Dod OOP with Leia.
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by teh_brainiac »

jcb213 wrote:
spideyguy0 wrote:I got bailed out by Senate going 3-0.
Shadow 14 wrote:Make it balanced, make it playable, but don't kill it.
If these cards are in there and Senate is unplayable
I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements. Casey went 3-0 with a deck that Chris is calling unplayable because of the counters. Either Casey got lucky and didn't face Civil Disorder v and/or Justice v, or Senate isn't unplayable even with the counters. So which is it?

Casey, did people play Civil Disorder v and/or Justice v against you in your senate games?
casey shouldve lost at least once, charlie didnt have the shield and casey didnt let him proxy it.
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by dorshe1 »

teh_brainiac wrote:
jcb213 wrote:
spideyguy0 wrote:I got bailed out by Senate going 3-0.
Shadow 14 wrote:Make it balanced, make it playable, but don't kill it.
If these cards are in there and Senate is unplayable
I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements. Casey went 3-0 with a deck that Chris is calling unplayable because of the counters. Either Casey got lucky and didn't face Civil Disorder v and/or Justice v, or Senate isn't unplayable even with the counters. So which is it?

Casey, did people play Civil Disorder v and/or Justice v against you in your senate games?
casey shouldve lost at least once, charlie didnt have the shield and casey didnt let him proxy it.
Proxies are not permitted. Especially for PC sponsored events. My understanding was that the PC had copies of the card available to purchase? I could be wrong about that though.

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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by jcb213 »

spideyguy0 wrote:My 3rd opponent (Chris) started Civil, played the shield, and placed Lott Dod OOP with Leia.
So Chris, you played the shield plus 2 main deck counters against Casey's DS senate deck and Casey still won, but you think Senate is unplayable because of the counters?
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Re: Reset Event Update

Post by Advocate »

They were to give away actually.

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