qualifying for worlds

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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by mryellow »

Cam Solusar wrote:One pragmatic reason to keep byes is that registration for leagues, states and regionals events raised in the ballpark of $800-900 for the PC last year.
I get this. But we shouldn't deny someone a shot at a bye because they traveled somewhere and other people didn't. In this case, "only" 2 hours were spent each way but what if someone flew? What if someone drove 1000 miles? That would be a huge turnoff. There are certainly people who can't get Friday off or live far enough away that they can't realistically arrive in time for one of the major Day 1 events but can go 2 hours to a regional or a states. It makes a certain amount of sense to have those byes be guaranteed somehow.
spideyguy0 wrote:I know you didn't want to address the issue of byes in general, but I think the two topics are connected. Essentially, I think if you can run an event with you and your buddy, where you both play a couple games and get byes, I think at that point you might as well do away with the bye system entirely, because it's truly lost all meaning.
I also get this concern but obviously the point has been raised that anyone is going to get a bye no matter what. Also, at this point in the game couldn't the PC act on a case-by-case basis? My issue is that people were penalized for playing, in this instance. Chris wasn't holding a regional in his basement.


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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by mrfahrenheit7 »

To kinda piggyback on what karrdeshark said... What if we could "buy a bye"? Maybe one of the tiers in the yearly pc donations system could include a bye to worlds.

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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by JediJer »

I do like the idea of winning a bye = discounted entry at Worlds.

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Re: qualifying for worlds

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JediJer wrote:I do like the idea of winning a bye = discounted entry at Worlds.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

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What if a bye at Worlds was really a bye at worlds. On day two all players with a bye get a bye thus starting the day with a win. I have not put a lot of time into determining the consequences, but then the Day 1 tournament would still have value. Additionally, the Friday event byes could pass to the following year if you already had one for the current year. This would offer two benefits: There would still be importance to playing, and no player would have to fear not being eligible to play in the "real" tournament. As long a decklist were turned in the players with Byes would get some extra time in the morning.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by spideyguy0 »

Archmage wrote:What if a bye at Worlds was really a bye at worlds. On day two all players with a bye get a bye thus starting the day with a win. I have not put a lot of time into determining the consequences, but then the Day 1 tournament would still have value. Additionally, the Friday event byes could pass to the following year if you already had one for the current year. This would offer two benefits: There would still be importance to playing, and no player would have to fear not being eligible to play in the "real" tournament. As long a decklist were turned in the players with Byes would get some extra time in the morning.
This is what Magic does. I suggested this about a month ago and got shot down very very quickly. I still love this idea though.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by allstarz97 »

spideyguy0 wrote:
Archmage wrote:What if a bye at Worlds was really a bye at worlds. On day two all players with a bye get a bye thus starting the day with a win. I have not put a lot of time into determining the consequences, but then the Day 1 tournament would still have value. Additionally, the Friday event byes could pass to the following year if you already had one for the current year. This would offer two benefits: There would still be importance to playing, and no player would have to fear not being eligible to play in the "real" tournament. As long a decklist were turned in the players with Byes would get some extra time in the morning.
This is what Magic does. I suggested this about a month ago and got shot down very very quickly. I still love this idea though.
They do not do this at their highest level of tournaments.

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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by Archmage »

If we are comparing to other games. this is what Fantasy Flight Games does and they take it one step further giving Super Bye for major equalling 2 byes, however the number of rounds in their worlds is greater and so the effect is reduced. Generally the serious players will have a bye and thus be on nearly equal equal footing.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by gogolen »

Archmage wrote:If we are comparing to other games. this is what Fantasy Flight Games does and they take it one step further giving Super Bye for major equalling 2 byes, however the number of rounds in their worlds is greater and so the effect is reduced. Generally the serious players will have a bye and thus be on nearly equal equal footing.
for this to work in our game Worlds would need to be 10 or more games I think. For all the HOF guys + regional winners etc, to start 1-0 automatically each year stacks the deck a little too much against most of the "middle of the pack" players.

I would definitely like to see more discussion on this but so far I do like the $$ discount for Saturday idea.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by JediJer »

gogolen wrote:
Archmage wrote:If we are comparing to other games. this is what Fantasy Flight Games does and they take it one step further giving Super Bye for major equalling 2 byes, however the number of rounds in their worlds is greater and so the effect is reduced. Generally the serious players will have a bye and thus be on nearly equal equal footing.
for this to work in our game Worlds would need to be 10 or more games I think. For all the HOF guys + regional winners etc, to start 1-0 automatically each year stacks the deck a little too much against most of the "middle of the pack" players.
Not to mention the two deck dynamic we have that other games don't have. Makes it more difficult going into game 2 when it comes to pairings. While it's great that other games have systems that may seem to work better than what we have, our system can only do so much due to how the game itself was designed. Comparing our tournament format to FFG or Magic is like apples and oranges

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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by chriskelly »

I know some people think the byes are kind of a joke, but between the Worlds I went to with a bye versus without, the time I had the bye made Friday so much more fun and enjoyable. There was no "pressure" of even having to go thru the motions or think about any Star Wars cards other than my Day 2 decks and there was not pressure for me to arrive at the lcoation on Friday by any certain time. It was definitely a mental and travel advantage to have the bye.

As far as the OP's question: I don't see a problem with guaranteeing the 2 byes for every regional that is approved by the Tournament Advocate (with the understanding that obviously if it's approved by the Tournament Advocate it will be properly advertised and in advance enough that it has the good-faith potential to be a legit event and not just friends buying byes by holding a secret event in a basement).

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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by teh_brainiac »

Just wanted to chime in that at least in the bespin area, byes are desperately wanted to be obtained. I think that is a good thing. I however realize that our area is kind of an anomaly.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by WiseMarsellus »

can we split this thread into two, one talking about kashyyyk regionals and one talking about the bye system? the op specifically said he did not want to talk about the bye system in general. i think the kashyyyk regional decision merits more discussion than it has received because this thread went off topic almost immediately.

as the tournament director of the event, i am quite upset with the decision in this instance and would like to take the time to explain why. apparently we ran afoul of an obscure rule that requires each bye-awarding event to have at least four entrants. one imagines the intent of the rule is to prevent people from holding events in isolated areas or with poor advertisement in an attempt to secure a bye for themselves or their friends without having to face real competition. if bill kafer had attempted to hold hawaii states while he was stationed there, it might have been a bit suspect. however, this location is relatively central to a large number of active players, was advertised well in advance, and had drawn well in the past. there were many players who might have been able to attend but who unfortunately had conflicts that specific day or weekend. the very next day the three best players in the world showed up, and many more could have come over the course of the weekend if not for things like weddings (one person), international travel (two), concerts (two), lack of public transportation (one), or work (one). and those are just the conflicts i now know about. this can not be the kind of event this rule was designed for.

and no one was more disappointed with the low attendance than the actual participants. certainly we wanted more people to show up, but just as certainly these circumstances were beyond our control. so we played star wars, ate pizza, played conquest, chatted, and did not for one second think the legitimacy of the event would be questioned. the twiggs took time out of their day to travel and attend a tournament in the hopes of earning a bye. i spent $45 at the pc store in the hopes of distributing two byes. through no fault of our own, these things did not materialize. this does not exactly incentivize such desired behavior in the future. this is an instance in my opinion where strict adherence to the rules promotes a clearly unjust result.


furthermore, let's examine two events, one of which awarded byes, one of which did not.

dantooine regionals: tournament announced on july 28th, held on august 6th. that is an advance announcement of slightly over a week. if there is a specific reason this event needed to be so late, it is unknown to me. the tournament forum shows no events in nearby areas on previous weekends which would conflict with this one. four players in attendance.

kashyyyk regionals: tournament announced on june 28th, held on august 6th. that is an advance announcement of slightly over five weeks. this was the only weekend that would not conflict with another swccg event or a magic event at the store in question. special permission was requested from the tournament advocate to hold an event this late before worlds. the tournament committee considered the application and approved it. i, the tournament director, contacted people directly via text and pm prior to the event to check availabilities, and bumped the thread on two separate occasions prior to the event. three players in attendance.


i am not asking that the dantooine regionals participants be stripped of their byes in the manner the kashyyykians were: i try, with varying degrees of success, not to be a douchebag. but i'm saying, if we're looking at which event of these two is the shadier, i feel like i'm not really reaching by declaring that dantooine regionals. the fact that they had one extra participants makes it a more legitimate tournament than ours, despite the fact that it was held after the cutoff date for no apparent reason, with barely any notice, and no exemption from the tournament committee? i'm sorry but i don't agree. it is literalism to an absurd degree to enforce this 4-person rule to the extent that it has been
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by Xanth »

I think the bye (AKA the "buy") should equal a discount or free entry into Worlds Main Event, plus something unique, preferably a foil slip of something only given to those who earned a bye (limit 1 per person) and made it to Worlds.

But I'm a sucker for foil slips.

Back on the main subject of the OP and Kashyyyk Regionals, that is truly unfortunate how matters worked out, and while I do understand the requirement of 4+ players to have a tournament deemed capable of rewarding a bye, it is more damaging of a rule in a smaller game community like ours. I think the bigger issue present is scheduling. Over here on the East Coast we had two major events within less than five hours of each other on the same days last month, when folks from either event would have likely traveled to the other if only one was scheduled that weekend. More proper management of event scheduling is probably the best avenue to explore, especially for bye-awarding events and events that grant a certain greater degree of player-of-the-year points. These events need to be scheduled and advertised probably a minimum of 1-2 months in advance.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

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Xanth wrote: I think the bigger issue present is scheduling. Over here on the East Coast we had two major events within less than five hours of each other on the same days last month, when folks from either event would have likely traveled to the other if only one was scheduled that weekend. More proper management of event scheduling is probably the best avenue to explore, especially for bye-awarding events and events that grant a certain greater degree of player-of-the-year points. These events need to be scheduled and advertised probably a minimum of 1-2 months in advance.
The real question is why, in essence, do we condense the entire states/regionals season into 2 months? Why aren't these events held year-round? I get that people have more free time in the summer to go to events, but really, we could stagger these events better. No reason why we can't have Y4 Regionals in December, and NY States in January, and CT States in February, and Coruscant Regionals in March, and MD States in April, etc. I think it would actually help attendance instead of jamming 6 events in a 4 hour drive of each other into 5 consecutive weekends.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by mrfahrenheit7 »

spideyguy0 wrote:
Xanth wrote: I think the bigger issue present is scheduling. Over here on the East Coast we had two major events within less than five hours of each other on the same days last month, when folks from either event would have likely traveled to the other if only one was scheduled that weekend. More proper management of event scheduling is probably the best avenue to explore, especially for bye-awarding events and events that grant a certain greater degree of player-of-the-year points. These events need to be scheduled and advertised probably a minimum of 1-2 months in advance.
The real question is why, in essence, do we condense the entire states/regionals season into 2 months? Why aren't these events held year-round? I get that people have more free time in the summer to go to events, but really, we could stagger these events better. No reason why we can't have Y4 Regionals in December, and NY States in January, and CT States in February, and Coruscant Regionals in March, and MD States in April, etc. I think it would actually help attendance instead of jamming 6 events in a 4 hour drive of each other into 5 consecutive weekends.
I've always thought there was an unspoken rule that these events "had" to occur during the summer leading up to worlds.

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Re: qualifying for worlds

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spideyguy0 wrote:
Xanth wrote: I think the bigger issue present is scheduling. Over here on the East Coast we had two major events within less than five hours of each other on the same days last month, when folks from either event would have likely traveled to the other if only one was scheduled that weekend. More proper management of event scheduling is probably the best avenue to explore, especially for bye-awarding events and events that grant a certain greater degree of player-of-the-year points. These events need to be scheduled and advertised probably a minimum of 1-2 months in advance.
The real question is why, in essence, do we condense the entire states/regionals season into 2 months? Why aren't these events held year-round? I get that people have more free time in the summer to go to events, but really, we could stagger these events better. No reason why we can't have Y4 Regionals in December, and NY States in January, and CT States in February, and Coruscant Regionals in March, and MD States in April, etc. I think it would actually help attendance instead of jamming 6 events in a 4 hour drive of each other into 5 consecutive weekends.
I support this. I mean, "x2".
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by quickdraw3457 »

To start on topic, I think it is a shame the kashyyyk event didn't get a bye when the money was spent on it and the preparation was put in. Seems like an exception should have been made.

To veer off topic, I love the idea of giving a discount to Day 2 for those who have a "bye". If you don't have a bye, you're really just making extra donations to get to day 2 as it is, so hold an event that costs more than the discount ($45 for a 2 bye event seems fine, with a $10 discount to Day 2). I know Grady and Vince had a blast this weekend, but if I would have had to play in 4 events Thursday-Friday to get in, I'd be exhausted and broke. Perhaps they still would have played in all of those, but not everyone would have wanted to. I'd probably pay to play in 1 and try to get the bye that way, but if not just relax more on Friday and pay the full price Saturday.

To veer further off topic, the travel vouchers for regional events in lieu of Nationals were awesome. So many places had events for the first time in a while. Pittsburgh had its first local at a game store in probably close to a decade. That kind of exposure is great.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by AnakinSolo »

On topic it was clearly the correct call. The tournament guide has been explicit on this point forever. Now, I could see allowing next ky regionals to be free as a proxy of fairness. I also think some quick latitude to let them move the regionals to Sunday would have been nice, though not helpful to twiggs in this case. Regardless, the TC and ta really need to expect events to be held in accordance with the standards set.

As for the future, I think there is a lot of merit in reconsidering the bye system or reforming it. I have won byes in approximately 8 years, and been to two worlds... Frankly I think that's a good thing, and it encourages people who win events to consider travel as well.
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Re: qualifying for worlds

Post by gogolen »

WiseMarsellus wrote:can we split this thread into two, one talking about kashyyyk regionals and one talking about the bye system? the op specifically said he did not want to talk about the bye system in general. i think the kashyyyk regional decision merits more discussion than it has received because this thread went off topic almost immediately.

as the tournament director of the event, i am quite upset with the decision in this instance and would like to take the time to explain why. apparently we ran afoul of an obscure rule that requires each bye-awarding event to have at least four entrants. one imagines the intent of the rule is to prevent people from holding events in isolated areas or with poor advertisement in an attempt to secure a bye for themselves or their friends without having to face real competition. if bill kafer had attempted to hold hawaii states while he was stationed there, it might have been a bit suspect. however, this location is relatively central to a large number of active players, was advertised well in advance, and had drawn well in the past. there were many players who might have been able to attend but who unfortunately had conflicts that specific day or weekend. the very next day the three best players in the world showed up, and many more could have come over the course of the weekend if not for things like weddings (one person), international travel (two), concerts (two), lack of public transportation (one), or work (one). and those are just the conflicts i now know about. this can not be the kind of event this rule was designed for.

and no one was more disappointed with the low attendance than the actual participants. certainly we wanted more people to show up, but just as certainly these circumstances were beyond our control. so we played star wars, ate pizza, played conquest, chatted, and did not for one second think the legitimacy of the event would be questioned. the twiggs took time out of their day to travel and attend a tournament in the hopes of earning a bye. i spent $45 at the pc store in the hopes of distributing two byes. through no fault of our own, these things did not materialize. this does not exactly incentivize such desired behavior in the future. this is an instance in my opinion where strict adherence to the rules promotes a clearly unjust result.


furthermore, let's examine two events, one of which awarded byes, one of which did not.

dantooine regionals: tournament announced on july 28th, held on august 6th. that is an advance announcement of slightly over a week. if there is a specific reason this event needed to be so late, it is unknown to me. the tournament forum shows no events in nearby areas on previous weekends which would conflict with this one. four players in attendance.

kashyyyk regionals: tournament announced on june 28th, held on august 6th. that is an advance announcement of slightly over five weeks. this was the only weekend that would not conflict with another swccg event or a magic event at the store in question. special permission was requested from the tournament advocate to hold an event this late before worlds. the tournament committee considered the application and approved it. i, the tournament director, contacted people directly via text and pm prior to the event to check availabilities, and bumped the thread on two separate occasions prior to the event. three players in attendance.


i am not asking that the dantooine regionals participants be stripped of their byes in the manner the kashyyykians were: i try, with varying degrees of success, not to be a douchebag. but i'm saying, if we're looking at which event of these two is the shadier, i feel like i'm not really reaching by declaring that dantooine regionals. the fact that they had one extra participants makes it a more legitimate tournament than ours, despite the fact that it was held after the cutoff date for no apparent reason, with barely any notice, and no exemption from the tournament committee? i'm sorry but i don't agree. it is literalism to an absurd degree to enforce this 4-person rule to the extent that it has been

The 4 person rule is not an obscure rule just for bye awarding events. It dates back over a decade, when there was still a rating system. You used to need 8 people to run a Sanctioned event (any format) in order for the results from the event to count for ratings. Due to the shrinking nature of the game, especially in more rural areas, it was changed to require only 4 people per event. Then the rating system went away, but the rule has never changed.

It is very unfortunate that none of the 3 people in attendance that day remembered the rule, and due to the event being so close to worlds did not have a chance to re-qualify and had to show up late on Friday in order to qualify, or have the 4th person that was with them actually play that day and not just hang out and watch games all afternoon.
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