New ASM

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Hayes
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New ASM

Post by Hayes »

I loved old ASM, so my primary criticism is based on what the original did successfully: the old prisoner prohibited light from draining at its location. The new one does not.

In testing vs TRM I found that T0 they would play some locations and draw a couple only to follow up next turn w LSJK and another guy (rey/padme/lando whatever). As the ASM player, this can pose to be a very difficult nut to crack. If I cant combat that immediately I am looking at a drain of 3 or 4 (assuming Lightsaber) the following turn. I cant even Enter The Bureaucrat because it's my location.

Back in the day, the prisoner stopped this. They could commit resources to prevent me from flipping, but then they weren't doing any damage and I could go wide. Now there is literally no reason for them not to deploy 4-5 guys to a natural drain 3 site.

Playing grievous (or someone less robust) turn 1 and trying to run isn't much better. They just attack into me, two guys to my 1. Sure, maul and TPM and IHYN are cards, but so are clash, AJC, SATM, and HMBHT.

I know some of the Europeans have posted that they like the objective, but I'm really struggling to make it work in the mains matchup. Any ideas?



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stephengascrub
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Re: New ASM

Post by stephengascrub »

I’m glad you brought this topic up Hayes. I don’t know. The problem isn’t helped by Battle Droid Squad not existing, and Grievous and Dooku not being pullable/deploy for less pre-reset.

Personally, I feel that the Magna Guard and the Invisible Hand aren’t enough help. I get that the Battle Droid Squad wasn’t the best design (a lot of decks want WMAOP/Bridge anyways) and having too many pull chains makes the game boring/leads to power creep.

That said, if the prisoner’s site can just be drained through, I feel DS needs more deck specific tools for ASM. Maul is nice, but he’s just one card. By the time you can get Maul+Dooku/Grevious plus scrub it’s usually too late or you need to have cards like you are beaten, doctor evazan combo, or sniper/dark strike to swing things in your favor.

I guess someone could try something hyper aggressive like 4 Mauls, 3 Dr. Evazan & Ponda Baba, and 2 Force Push v. It doesn’t feel great though and it’s not ideal to be all in on using that (or something similar) to catch up with TRM or Hitco which have good character pools and excellent force activation.

Personally, I think if everything else was the same about ASM except you can’t drain at the site the deck would be super viable. As is, it seems tier 1.5/2.

I hope someone proves that’s wrong though. I’d love to see ASM be okay against mains and a top deck.
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Re: New ASM

Post by 3MW0J8 »

It's >50% of the dark side cards in Set 11 and it's total bunk.

Dark side needed help, bad, this set and it got squadoosh.
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RybackStun
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Re: New ASM

Post by RybackStun »

Excluding what Reid stated, these are all good things to know. Weaknesses to be on the lookout for.

Looking forward to trying to rebuild this to be something super fun to play and to try to win games with.

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Brazen
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Re: New ASM

Post by Brazen »

It's at about a tier "fun" on release. Does mediocre damage and almost always loses to TRM on activation ratio alone.

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Re: New ASM

Post by arebelspy »

Agree with Reid and Charlie.

Oh well. They can add helpers later.

Dark can take one more for the team?

Paul McPherson
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Re: New ASM

Post by Paul McPherson »

Whilst I do not entirely disagree with the OP, if we are going to compare it to "back in the day" then it should be noted for those who were not active then that LS could deploy a Jedi with a LS to Insideous Prisoner's site at the start of the game.
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Darth_Link
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Re: New ASM

Post by Darth_Link »

ASM is underrated imo. As Paul said, in Legacy LS got a guy with a saber for free.
It's good against several decks, cause they can't really prevent your flip (QMC, OA for example).
It can run 3x Mains with sabers, Nute v is money (adds with most guys in your deck).
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Re: New ASM

Post by sjacree »

Could just start Were Are Those Droid Deikas?! (V), run 16 destroyer droids and forget Dooku, Grievous and Maul. DDs shoot LS mains pretty well.
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FlorisV
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Re: New ASM

Post by FlorisV »

Hayes wrote:I loved old ASM, so my primary criticism is based on what the original did successfully: the old prisoner prohibited light from draining at its location. The new one does not.

In testing vs TRM I found that T0 they would play some locations and draw a couple only to follow up next turn w LSJK and another guy (rey/padme/lando whatever). As the ASM player, this can pose to be a very difficult nut to crack. If I cant combat that immediately I am looking at a drain of 3 or 4 (assuming Lightsaber) the following turn. I cant even Enter The Bureaucrat because it's my location.

Back in the day, the prisoner stopped this. They could commit resources to prevent me from flipping, but then they weren't doing any damage and I could go wide. Now there is literally no reason for them not to deploy 4-5 guys to a natural drain 3 site.

Playing grievous (or someone less robust) turn 1 and trying to run isn't much better. They just attack into me, two guys to my 1. Sure, maul and TPM and IHYN are cards, but so are clash, AJC, SATM, and HMBHT.

I know some of the Europeans have posted that they like the objective, but I'm really struggling to make it work in the mains matchup. Any ideas?
Young Maul deploys for 5, is immune to Clash and gets a +1 on each swing at Luke. Starting with The Phantom Menace isn't bad (pullable Nute to boot once Maul hits the table).

I like Kintan combo in the deck: it gets back Grievous or a good pilot like Sidon/Bossk v in other matchups and cancelling satm with immunity to sense is great. A Dark Time For The Rebellion v can be a way to protect high defense mains and damage TRM, unless you prefer Force Field (doesn't work on your MVP, Grievous though). Dooku can Force LIghtning because Rescue In The Clouds v does not work at Palpatine's office.

Not easy but maybe plot a 6/7 for a Weapon Levitation with Grievous?

What I dislike is that the MagnaGuard only protects against Clash at sites you'll probably never be at against the decks that play Clash. You could start Crush and run a couple of IHYN. Or just pair droids with Young Maul. If he clashes the droid, it can block the drain. Evazan and Dark strike combo are also dangerous for LS. Also your activation is a bit more reliable than LS: pullable twix, Establish Control v pulls a good system.
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stimpy
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Re: New ASM

Post by stimpy »

Paul McPherson wrote:Whilst I do not entirely disagree with the OP, if we are going to compare it to "back in the day" then it should be noted for those who were not active then that LS could deploy a Jedi with a LS to Insideous Prisoner's site at the start of the game.
It should also be noted that the private platform was a 1/0

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Re: New ASM

Post by Corran »

My gut tells me that this deck will find its footing by early 2020. We're in a different meta and it's a different card from Legacy ASM, but it still feels like a solid mains platform. Maybe it needs some helpers to be tier one. Maybe it just needs some time for people to figure out a strategy.

Also, TRM is getting less and less popular in the current meta, and EBO, OA, QMC, and the new Luke Objective aren't really mains platforms, so it could find its place in the meta as an anti-scrub platform.
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Cam Solusar
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Re: New ASM

Post by Cam Solusar »

Corran wrote:My gut tells me that this deck will find its footing by early 2020. We're in a different meta and it's a different card from Legacy ASM, but it still feels like a solid mains platform. Maybe it needs some helpers to be tier one. Maybe it just needs some time for people to figure out a strategy.

Also, TRM is getting less and less popular in the current meta, and EBO, OA, QMC, and the new Luke Objective aren't really mains platforms, so it could find its place in the meta as an anti-scrub platform.
As long as TRM is tier 1 this deck is going to be a poor meta choice. It struggled against TRM in legacy and TRM was tier 2 at best during that time.
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Re: New ASM

Post by seitaer »

I'm fine with this not being tier one out of the box. Especially considering how things like Map and AOBS turned out.

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Re: New ASM

Post by Jedicon »

As someone who enjoyed ASM in legacy, this was certainly disappointing to see at release. Hopefully helpers are added to make it viable.

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Re: New ASM

Post by AdmiralMotti89 »

seitaer wrote:I'm fine with this not being tier one out of the box. Especially considering how things like Map and AOBS turned out.
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Re: New ASM

Post by sjacree »

seitaer wrote:I'm fine with this not being tier one out of the box. Especially considering how things like Map and AOBS turned out.
Yup. Though, Insidious Prisoner was a missed opportunity to make it into a persona of Sidious/Palpatine.
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Darth_Link
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Re: New ASM

Post by Darth_Link »

Cam Solusar wrote:
Corran wrote:My gut tells me that this deck will find its footing by early 2020. We're in a different meta and it's a different card from Legacy ASM, but it still feels like a solid mains platform. Maybe it needs some helpers to be tier one. Maybe it just needs some time for people to figure out a strategy.

Also, TRM is getting less and less popular in the current meta, and EBO, OA, QMC, and the new Luke Objective aren't really mains platforms, so it could find its place in the meta as an anti-scrub platform.
As long as TRM is tier 1 this deck is going to be a poor meta choice. It struggled against TRM in legacy and TRM was tier 2 at best during that time.
The real struggle was TIGH. So yeah, before the game starts I have Mace with saber AND Luke with Saber on table. Thanks.
Jedicon wrote:As someone who enjoyed ASM in legacy, this was certainly disappointing to see at release. Hopefully helpers are added to make it viable.
Sorry to hear that it was disappointing. I'm personally excited and think the TRM matchup can be ok with certain builds (like starting Crush). It pulls all activation without helpers like WMAOP, it got 3 guys with sabers, all immune to <5 or <6. You can play TPM to get Neimoidians like Tey or Nute v. Super easy to get 3-4 BDs in space as well (Nute and Invisible hand can both add).
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retwin316
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Re: New ASM

Post by retwin316 »

3MW0J8 wrote:It's >50% of the dark side cards in Set 11 and it's total bunk.

Dark side needed help, bad, this set and it got squadoosh.
This, 100 % this. I made a long post, but deleted it.

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Re: New ASM

Post by stephengascrub »

My previous post aside, LS not being able to start a jedi does help the new ASM some. However, I do think since LS can drain at the prisoner's site, it'll be significantly harder for DS to flip against mains/reactive decks. Against decks that aren't mains, I'm not sure what you do. You probably just set up and flip against a lot of decks and then allocate resources as appropriate. I think QMC could be the one tough matchup/matchup where you might not flip. If they set up on CC and get celebration going, you're not going to have a prayer to outdamage/outrace them. I would imagine you want to try to disrupt them on the ground.

Against any deck that isn't Hitco, TRM, or QMC, the deck might be decent. I'll definitely be curious to see how it plays out and look forward to watching games on GEMP or at Worlds.
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