Coronavirus

[Hunter]

Orrr...you could just be completely asymptomatic, like so many of the rest of the infected?

I'm in the high risk group.

Right, I understand that.

So how many of the high risk group have been asymptomatic?

I don't know. Some. The way I've seen it explained is that people who are high-risk and people who aren't can both get a severe case, or a mild case, or an asymptomatic case. If a high-risk person happens to get a severe case, that's when they will be in serious jeopardy. But a high-risk person could also still have an asymptomatic case, and they'll...still be asymptomatic, despite being more susceptible to the dangers of a severe case. Make sense?

So if someone says "Well *I* can't afford to get it, because I'm high-risk, and so if I get it, I'll be in way more danger" then that person has a misunderstanding of what it means to be "high-risk" and how the different severities of Covid cases work.

The virus itself isn't spectacular. Its just a respiratory virus. It affects the lungs. I don't expect to see a bunch of people on respirators tomorrow or this week. I expect work to be interesting because the company is going to be doing a lot to try and contain it so they don't have to shut down the plant and stop working thus losing money. The measures will be interesting to watch. The people I work with will be interesting to watch.

Okay, I get you now. That all makes sense, and I agree. Those things could be interesting to watch. Again, I only meant that IF you've had new exposures to Covid at your workplace, I don't think you're going to suddenly see a bunch of people being real sick.

Because we've seen repeatedly that in places where a large number of people all became infected at once, most were asymptomatic, and had no idea they were infected. That's not even counting any of the mild cases, where the person thought they just had a cold or the "traditional" flu. I only mean the people who didn't think they were sick with anything, at all. So because of the special circumstances surrounding your workplace (which you've outlined) I do think it's at least *possible* that the virus hasn't already swept through there, and is just now arriving. But I would happily bet that MOST workplaces of 300+ employees have already had the virus sweep through. Whether they knew it or not is another story.

I don't know why you'd assume and leap to the conclusion that I thought the virus was going to be interesting...

Just because there are some people out there who seem to think that the virus itself is a huge deal (instead of seeing that what's been done in its name is the huge deal). I mean...you don't even need to look outside this very thread to find 1 or 2 of those, right?

[Hayes]

And it will be what the people did (and NOT anything the virus did) that will leave a lasting impression in our lives and minds. So that decades later, when the story is told, the focus of the story won't be that there were X number of infections, or that Y number of people succumbed to that infection. Because those aren't the parts of the story that are interesting, or shocking. The focus of the story will be how we responded to those infections. All the insane things we did, that we'd never done before.

The Covid "Pandemic" is not the AMAZING, unprecedented historical event that is taking place here. The Covid "Panic" is the AMAZING, unprecedented historical event that we are witnessing.

Is that something I just thought up? No, I cut and pasted it from another place I had already posted it previously. I have been saying some variation of it (in every conversation I've had about Coronavirus of any length) for MONTHS already.

And I'm quite sure I'm not alone. I'm quite sure I wasn't one of the first people saying it, even.

Because you've made such comments before, or that others may share those same sentiments, does not mean you are right. I imagine there are rural parts of the globe that are largely unaffected by the virus. But to simply ignore what has happened in China, NYC, Italy, etc is absurd. I'm guessing you did't have any family or friends that died as a result of the virus? It's sad, to me, the way you appear to view the world.

http://people.math.harvard.edu/~ctm/lin ... ement.html

[JarJarDrinks]

The reason that cutesly little graphic is wrong is that it assumes people have only just now begun saying that the preposterous overreactions were preposterous.

No it doesn't make that assumption at all.

That graphic as implying that people that have been saying from the beginning that we're overreacting are now looking at the results of social distancing to validate the opinion they had all along.

Or in others words: All your posts the last 3 pages.

[Hunter]

I'm guessing you did't have any family or friends that died as a result of the virus?

Well gosh, statistically, that's a REALLY SAFE guess on your part, isn't it?

No, I have not had any family or friends (or people who I would describe more as "work colleagues" or "casual acquaintances") die from the virus.

In fact, I could not name a single person I know who has even tested positively in the first place, much less died.

I have been told the same by family and friends. And by people I would describe more as "work colleagues" or "casual acquaintances."
Family members say they've been told the same by their friends.
Friends say they've been told the same by their family members.
My girlfriend says she's been told the same by her family members (including her sister and her sister's husband, both medical professionals).

The first post in this thread says "Has this affected anyone?"

If we're talking about the VIRUS, then I can certainly say "no" (or at least, it didn't affect me to the point where I can even be 100% sure I had it). If we're talking about the "panic" then...can anyone say no?

[Hunter]

The reason that cutesly little graphic is wrong is that it assumes people have only just now begun saying that the preposterous overreactions were preposterous.

No it doesn't make that assumption at all.

That graphic as implying that people that have been saying from the beginning that we're overreacting are now looking at the results of social distancing to validate the opinion they had all along.

And...what are you supposed to be basing this theory on? The pic offers no indication that the "we overreacted!" began before the "we are here."
It did, but the graphic surely doesn't tell you so.

[Wokling]

The reason that cutesly little graphic is wrong is that it assumes people have only just now begun saying that the preposterous overreactions were preposterous.

No it doesn't make that assumption at all.

That graphic as implying that people that have been saying from the beginning that we're overreacting are now looking at the results of social distancing to validate the opinion they had all along.

And...what are you supposed to be basing this theory on? The pic offers no indication that the "we overreacted!" began before the "we are here."
It did, but the graphic surely doesn't tell you so.

"See? It wasn't so bad! We overreacted!" The speaker believes the pandemic to be over. It's right there. I bolded it for you. If anybody was saying that before "we are here" on the graphic, they would have been falsely believing or claiming that the pandemic was over.

Here's a link showing the number of excess death in different countries and cities. The timelines show when public health measures such as lockdowns were implemented. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... -countries

[Hunter]

"See? It wasn't so bad! We overreacted!" The speaker believes the pandemic to be over. It's right there. I bolded it for you. If anybody was saying that before "we are here" on the graphic, they would have been falsely believing or claiming that the pandemic was over.

That interpretation makes no sense. Who do you hear declaring that the pandemic is over?

[JarJarDrinks]

The reason that cutesly little graphic is wrong is that it assumes people have only just now begun saying that the preposterous overreactions were preposterous.

No it doesn't make that assumption at all.

That graphic as implying that people that have been saying from the beginning that we're overreacting are now looking at the results of social distancing to validate the opinion they had all along.

And...what are you supposed to be basing this theory on? The pic offers no indication that the "we overreacted!" began before the "we are here."

It surely does.

What else can be meant by the "See?" in front of the "It wasn't so bad" ?? It's clearly a "toldja so".


In your mind what imaginary person would say the statement: "See? It wasn't so bad" if it's not being said by someone that has been claiming that we're overreacting ?

[Hunter]

In your mind what imaginary person would say the statement: "See? It wasn't so bad" if it's not being said by someone that has been claiming that we're overreacting ?

A person who was unsure of whether we were overreacting.

[JarJarDrinks]

In your mind what imaginary person would say the statement: "See? It wasn't so bad" if it's not being said by someone that has been claiming that we're overreacting ?

A person who was unsure of whether we were overreacting.

that person would say "hmmm" or "well would you look at that?"

In no universe is that person saying "See?"

You can call it cutesy all you want but that graphic is 100% accurately representing your posts in this thread.

[arebelspy]

If you look at this:

And it will be what the people did (and NOT anything the virus did) that will leave a lasting impression in our lives and minds. So that decades later, when the story is told, the focus of the story won't be that there were X number of infections, or that Y number of people succumbed to that infection. Because those aren't the parts of the story that are interesting, or shocking. The focus of the story will be how we responded to those infections. All the insane things we did, that we'd never done before.

The Covid "Pandemic" is not the AMAZING, unprecedented historical event that is taking place here. The Covid "Panic" is the AMAZING, unprecedented historical event that we are witnessing.

Is that something I just thought up? No, I cut and pasted it from another place I had already posted it previously. I have been saying some variation of it (in every conversation I've had about Coronavirus of any length) for MONTHS already.

And I'm quite sure I'm not alone. I'm quite sure I wasn't one of the first people saying it, even.

Inability to change one's mind in the face of evidence is not a virtue.

[JarJarDrinks]

and speaking of this thread, before i read the last few pages, I assumed it was common knowledge that the reason to wear masks is primarily to prevent the wearer from spreading it. I hadn't heard anyone suggest otherwise until I read it here.

[Hunter]

In your mind what imaginary person would say the statement: "See? It wasn't so bad" if it's not being said by someone that has been claiming that we're overreacting ?

A person who was unsure of whether we were overreacting.

that person would say "hmmm" or "well would you look at that?"

In no universe is that person saying "See?"

Wrong.

Person A: "Do you think it's possible that we may be overreacting?"
Person B: "No. [Course of Action] is necessary."
*Cut to when it turns out it wasn't necessary*
Person A: "See? It wasn't so bad. We overreacted."

Person A never said that we overreacted until "we are here."

I don't know why some of y'all are SO FIERCELY deadset against THINKING, before you post something.
You should NOT have needed this spelled out for you.

[Hunter]

If you look at this:

And it will be what the people did (and NOT anything the virus did) that will leave a lasting impression in our lives and minds. So that decades later, when the story is told, the focus of the story won't be that there were X number of infections, or that Y number of people succumbed to that infection. Because those aren't the parts of the story that are interesting, or shocking. The focus of the story will be how we responded to those infections. All the insane things we did, that we'd never done before.

The Covid "Pandemic" is not the AMAZING, unprecedented historical event that is taking place here. The Covid "Panic" is the AMAZING, unprecedented historical event that we are witnessing.

Is that something I just thought up? No, I cut and pasted it from another place I had already posted it previously. I have been saying some variation of it (in every conversation I've had about Coronavirus of any length) for MONTHS already.

And I'm quite sure I'm not alone. I'm quite sure I wasn't one of the first people saying it, even.

Inability to change one's mind in the face of evidence is not a virtue.

LOLOLOLOL (etc.)

Is that "evidence" you speak of the reason why there are more and more people saying it every day, than the day before?

If there's any part of what I said above that you didn't enjoy hearing, then you'd better steel yourself. You'll be swimming in that opinion before long, and this thread is the only place I've gotten any pushback on it.

[Darth_Link]

Jesus effing christ, the misinformation is real.

Yes, that graphic is a great representation of the people that say "oh it's not too bad". No, cause you eventually took drastic measures, albeit too late. How can one say with more than 100k dead in their country that it's not a big deal? Wear a friggin mask, it's not a big deal. If you can't wear a mask, your issues lies elsewhere. Stay the * home. This is not a test of the emergency system, this is real.

The 100k deaths are likely not the real number, as very few countries have accurate ways of counting right now. Next year we might see the real numbers, and they are likely to be much higher. And oh, it's beyond 100k btw, in case you missed that. The current number of confirmed covid deatsh in the US is 112,469. But the way Hunter talks in this thread could have you believe it was 25 people.

No, it's not likely that most people at rhendon's job have it or already had it. In the worst hit cities, they still struggle to reach even 20% with anti-bodies when testing. So while a bunch might have it, most won't.

And oh, before you go "you know nothing Jon Snow". I literally have the virus right now. My wife was tested positive a week ago, and spent 2 nights this weekend at the hospital with severe symptoms. So reading the * * in this thread is, while not unexpected, heartbreaking. In total I know 5 people (including me and my wife) who have tested positive, so it's far less widespread than you think. Regardless of how many are asymptomatic.

I mean, you should be prepared for the next pandemic but instead your mind goes to " What people will talk about will be the preposterous overreactions. That is the story." Holy * that is a bad take.
You didn't react SOON enough. That's the story. Your president and his administration failed at every step. He is fighting with Twitter and signing executive orders instead of fighting the pandemic.


Covid panic? Gtfo. Tell that to the 10k dead in Belgium (10% the number of dead compared to the US but 1/30th the population)

Why did a country like Vietnamn do better than most in the west? They were hit with the avian flu and know that this means. Next time a lot of countries in the west will be prepared, but with Hunter's attitude the US will just continue partying, host weddings and go to the beach like it's nothing.

[Death Star]

Covid panic? Gtfo. Tell that to the 60k dead in Belgium (half the number of dead compared to the US but 1/30th the population)

Wow, did not see this thread explode again until just now.
Tough to hear that, Emil. All the best for you and your family. While I generally agree a lot with your post (and we in germany got off lightly ourselves so far) I do have to correct you on the belgium part. 60k is the current number of people that have/had the virus. The number of dead is about 10k.
But sure, there a couple countries that have a higher death rate per capita than the US.

Also regarding the masks:
Technically you wear the normal everyday mask to protect others. I am not an altruist though, if everybody else would not wear a mask I wouldn't either. So I do wear the mask to protect myself, by the way of a common contract that everybody wears them and everybody gets protected (whatever much protection those everyday masks offer, which is not that much as far as I know). And that is only in any public indoor situations.
If you are wearing glasses like myself (dunno if Hunter is wearing glasses) they are a nuisance indeed. That is my main problem with them though, if I would not wear glasses, I think its not that bad.

[Darth_Link]

Woops, misread that. But the point remains, just check France Italy Spain Belgium (and now Brazil) for horrible stats.
Edited it

[Hunter]

Jesus effing christ, the misinformation is real.

I could not agree more.

Yes, that graphic is a great representation of the people that say "oh it's not too bad". No, cause you eventually took drastic measures, albeit too late.

How many links would you like, to studies showing little or no correlation between "taking drastic measures" and a reduced infection rate? I went to Google, and only got as far as "study shows s" when Google's TOP suggestion for the information I wanted was "study shows social distancing doesn't work." But I had already been hearing about such studies on the radio and in articles before needing to look for them.

How many links would you like, to studies and charts and graphs showing you how infection still spread in cities under lockdown, just as surely as in cities that weren't? Go do a bit of searching. You'll be looking at them 'til your eyes fall out. You can find a study to say whatever you want. You could even find studies with the opposite conclusions, just to make sure it's all pointless.

The 100k deaths are likely not the real number, as very few countries have accurate ways of counting right now.

Here again, I couldn't agree more. Since people who didn't die from Coronavirus are VERY FAMOUSLY being counted in the death toll anyway. Want something else that'll keep you busy reading 'til your eyes fall out? Go look for stories about the people who received death certificates for loved ones, saying the cause of death was Covid-related when they know that it wasn't. And they brought it up with the hospital, who just threw up their hands and said "this is what we've been instructed to do, when the deceased has tested positive." But if you read some fact-check articles about whether this is actually happening or not, you'll see that it's even worse than that. Cities have admitted to listing Covid on thousands of death certificates in cases where they only SUSPECTED the person was infected. They aren't even certain the person HAD it to begin with, but it's still going on that death certificate.

No, it's not likely that most people at rhendon's job have it or already had it. In the worst hit cities, they still struggle to reach even 20% with anti-bodies when testing. So while a bunch might have it, most won't.

Except that they aren't just testing people at random, are they? You'd think that they would focus on testing people who think they might be sick. Not people who have it and are completely asymptomatic. Whenever they blanket-test big swaths of people (regardless of whether they have any symptoms) they consistently find that the majority of the people who test *positive* are asymptomatic. They randomly tested everyone on an aircraft carrier (big waste of tests...Captain of the ship was fired) and found 600 cases. But more than half of them had no symptoms. Again, that doesn't count anyone with a "mild" case who thought they just had a cold or the "normal" flu. Uh-uh. NO symptoms. They tested everyone who came off one of the cruise ships, and found that more than EIGHTY percent of the people who tested positive had NO symptoms. The news has come out about how the Coronavirus reached the US much earlier than originally thought, more like January instead of March. So alllll those people who were saying "I think I already had it, at the beginning of the year" have seen their stories become more and more and more credible, as time has gone on and more information has come to light.

When the virus is SO easily transmissible, and when SUCH a high ratio of the infected never find out they were infected, the number of people who've had it and never known it is likely STAGGERING.

[Hunter]

Also regarding the masks:
Technically you wear the normal everyday mask to protect others. I am not an altruist though, if everybody else would not wear a mask I wouldn't either.

If I know what you mean by "normal everyday mask" then yeah, that is not what any of the people I mentioned at work were wearing. There were no standard surgical masks, and nothing that looked to be homemade. I don't know if they were mostly N95s, or ALL N95s, but they were all some version or other of a respirator mask.

People keep saying that the mask protects others better than it protects the wearer. That's great, I never said otherwise. That doesn't mean it's the REASON they were wearing them. Based on the explanations that were freely given, the thing that convinced these people to go from "I don't wanna wear a mask" to "I guess I'm gonna wear a mask" is that they identified as high-risk (or had someone at home that did), and so wanted to protect themselves (or that person at home). They weren't going to make that sacrifice just to be altruistic or magnanimous.

So I do wear the mask to protect myself, by the way of a common contract that everybody wears them and everybody gets protected

Do you actually see people living by that contract, though? Because I don't, here. It seems like people are pretty much "over" all the stay-at-home orders and the masks and all that, by this point.

Traffic on my way to work had rebounded to 100% of normal before the end of April. The number of customers I see wearing masks at grocery stores or WalMart or Kohl's or whatever is really, really low. We went to a sit-down Italian restaurant for dinner on Friday. I did not see anyone removing a mask as they came in. I did not see anyone putting on a mask as they left. There were exactly zero masks being used by anyone who was a customer instead of an employee. Ditto at the Five Guys (burger place) on Sunday.

If you are wearing glasses like myself (dunno if Hunter is wearing glasses) they are a nuisance indeed. That is my main problem with them though, if I would not wear glasses, I think its not that bad.

I do wear glasses, but I don't think that's really what makes it so problematic for me. I just prefer being able to breathe. Multiple times, in the first week of mask usage at work, I heard one co-worker ask another some variation of "how's it going?" and the other person says some variation of "Well, I can't breathe. But otherwise I'm fine!"

[Death Star]

If I know what you mean by "normal everyday mask" then yeah, that is not what any of the people I mentioned at work were wearing. There were no standard surgical masks, and nothing that looked to be homemade. I don't know if they were mostly N95s, or ALL N95s, but they were all some version or other of a respirator mask.

Do you actually see people living by that contract, though? Because I don't, here. It seems like people are pretty much "over" all the stay-at-home orders and the masks and all that, by this point.

Traffic on my way to work had rebounded to 100% of normal before the end of April. The number of customers I see wearing masks at grocery stores or WalMart or Kohl's or whatever is really, really low. We went to a sit-down Italian restaurant for dinner on Friday. I did not see anyone removing a mask as they came in. I did not see anyone putting on a mask as they left. There were exactly zero masks being used by anyone who was a customer instead of an employee. Ditto at the Five Guys (burger place) on Sunday.

I have no experience with respiratory masks.
With "normal everyday mask" I do indeed mean either cloth face masks or surgical masks. I wear the later kind. I also think that this is what Joe was talking about but that would be up to him to clarify.

In germany we do have regulations for mandatory use of masks in public indoor spaces and for keeping a distance of 5 feet from each other.
So if you wanna go into a supermarket, you need a mask and because of that everybody wears one there. Establishments are also supposed to monitor the number of visitors to allow for keeping the distancing rules. So some supermarkets make it mandatory to use a shopping cart and if there is no cart left you have to wait for someone to come out because the market is "full". The carts also help with keeping the distance.
If you wanna use public transport, you have to wear a mask.
If you go to a restaurant, you have to wear the mask except when you are seated at your table, where by definition you are at least 5 feet away from everybody else.

Its hard to say what "the people" would do if masks were not mandatory and futile to assume what if. It is in my experience in the last few weeks that some people, maybe because of wearing the masks, are more willing to be flexible with the 5 feet rule.
Traffic is a dream here still. It picked up somewhat the last few weeks, but I still havent spent a single minute in a non-accident related traffic jam since this thing started. And I regularly drove to the office the whole time, based on that we are only 3 people in total at the office.
Lots of people still not working regularly again, schools are still at very reduced capacity, so are nurseries. So lots of parents still working from home because of that although maybe they could go back to the office.

Personally I have not been to an indoor restaurant again yet, only to an outdoor place. Or to any public indoor spaces except for basic necessities like food.

Anyway, thats our experience in germany. We are happy that our health care system never got overloaded and that we have more capacities per capita than most countries hit hard like UK, Italy or Spain.