Set 13 Full Spoiler List

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chriskelly
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by chriskelly »

Saladas wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 5:05 pm
chriskelly wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 4:44 pm
Let’s keep this thread for discussion and offering constructive feedback on the set.

Obviously those who have issues with how feedback is received (whether good or bad) remain free to contact me or start a thread on that.

Thank you all for the posts so far!
whats the reasoning behind inquisitors destiny +2?
DS destiny is usually lower than LS (compared Wesa to Sonic) so in creating a “mains” style deck where you are limited character-wise we wanted to give ds a new deck style of decent destiny.



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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Echo Base Trooper »

Note: Tobias Beckett text updated
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Dr. Hayus »

Echo Base Trooper wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 5:48 pm
Note: Tobias Beckett text updated
Thanks for everything thus far! What happened to Slimy Piece of Worm Ridden Filth? Also, was the Tamtel that protects your rep ever released? Thanks!

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by allstarz97 »

Echo what Chris said - the next window of time to get fresh eyes, (that haven't been looking at all the variations of the masterlist whether you're on DD or PT) is a GREAT thing, you guys are already seeing it from a perspective that people on the inside haven't been able to (Both PT and DD) - we've been adding the spices to the soup to make it good, you guys can actually taste it though. And sometimes those first gut reactions hit it right on the head.

Example of that, we got feedback from some PT games where SC was too confusing as to what guys it could play.. so in DD we had the idea to open it up to all aliens and all droids (and new maul). "It's probably too open but maybe try it...? court has that, mkos etc... maybe it's fine? Anyway, within an hour of posting the new open'd up character package PT was saying why it was wayyyy too OP, for a bevy of reasons and it really showed the beauty of the whole process.

I do want to address one thing that was said here though:
You're making a lot of assumptions about how feedback works around here.- hayes
It may feel like feedback isn't being listened too, but it certainly is. It seems like a lot of the commentary overall is about the card twilight v. Well a little timeline on the feedback and evolution of that card:

Mid summer twilight pulled yoda's hut, v13-yoda could relocate there (or any battleground), and anakin skywalker v was super broken, however, in testing **just the 2-0 ***wasn't enough and despite some from PT talking about deck slots being saved, it was pretty clear it was a lateral move at best and that anakin skywalker v was probably still too good.

In July, Chris kelley posted this:
If you have been able to test some stuff this set, thank you! If you have any experience with trying out any of this stuff, your time and feedback would very much be appreciated!!! Thank you,
CK

<<<<<List of things to test...>>>

3- HITCO. We are kind of stuck on this one. Tbh, the deck plays better with the same old 3 effects plus Wesa package than with new effect and no wesas. How do we fix that? Do we strike the no e1 locations or do we find away to get it more native activation. And is the throw down saber to trigger a cool ability on Anakin also too cute to be effective?
We got some great feedback right away
3- HITCO. - I like it having a distinct activation platform that separates it from TRM, but agree it's probably not enough. Seems like it can get to 11/3 with Wok/Yoda/Prophecy, but that seems bad when decks like HD are now getting up to like 16-20 on T2-T3. 
At the same time, it is not clear to me that it is better than the traditional Insurrection/Wesa build. Possibly adding in the new DS2 site will help, but my preference would be, if we're indeed pursuing the Twilight-V direction, which I think is worthwhile, that we look at options to let it get more native activation. I am all for decks that are pushed away from playing Wesa/BNC. I think Lenny's suggestions in slack of letting Twilight pull Dagobah sites instead of just the Hut would help, and we can try that for sure. That would actually be easy to test without programming it
Wesa and TRM are pretty much the problems. Wesa is an easily-playable activation boost, so decks that don't have great activation just slap that in.
Because you want to "kill" TRM and simultaneously dissuade Wesa/Speak? That's the only reason I can think of for why HITCO is receiving more attention at this time. When mains decks start giving up tons of icons/battlegrounds they cease to be good. Mains work best when they can bully a key battle ground (and/or limit the number of meaningful battle grounds).

And is the throw down saber to trigger a cool ability on Anakin also too cute to be effective?
Or too powerful. One of the two.
The last quote was from Hayes, so I think throughout the whole process he's certainly been hesitant to help Hitco out too much, however, many PT'ers and PT games did suggest that people did like the help/thought it was needed... but no one really thought we had the right stuff in yet. And one universal was that people were just sick of wesa.

Shortly after that a super broken version of twighlight came out that pulled a system, or a ds2 or dagobah site (... so it pulled two 2-0s). Within a week or two this was shown to just be super OP and both PT and DD kinda knew that version wasn't going to work, but one middle ground people sort of liked was the dag site pull and people sorta said, "well, yoda's hut + 2x dag sites kinda = boss nass and two db's...ok, that sounds appealing, less wesa, sounds good."


There were several PT game reports with the middle ground version and it seemed pretty balanced, then a bunch of jedi-testing hitco builds popped up and hayes posted a well laid out post about why the twilight that pulls the dag sites was getting pushed too much, that it did too much etc. His focus was on the efficiency of the deck and how weakening trm meant we didn't need to help hitco as much, that along with all the jedi test builds led DD to cut the dag site pulls except for the hut.

So twilight changed again, the dag sites were removed (no more testing issues - and if you wanted the 2-0, 1-0,1-0 thing you'd have to go back to wesa and dbs, as this was just a 2-0 still and it felt like we were a bit back to where we started.

Then there was an idea on DD to make anakin and twighlight sort of bridge that gap with activation. We knew we wanted to close the 2-0 to 4-0 in some way-- but not all the way as hayes said it shouldn't just be a clean swap with less slots. So it settled on what is in the list you see now.

Feedback from some games that followed that change:
Takeaways:
- The Anakin V packaged proved quite effective, adding activation on turn 1 and then functioning in battle later. I'm much more excited to play 4x Anakin Skywalker V than 4x Wesa.
For generation, twilight seemed fair, though from another game it was obvious it'd be better as deploy to table

There were also several PT games where Hitco got run over.

So as you can see it's quite the process, and when you add in PT discussion on slack, and DD discussion on here, some things get lost in the shuffle. One thing I think that is becoming clear that we missed is that the site pull should be deploy and not ^. So it's good that both PT and players from outside of the process point to stuff like that and say, hey i think you missed something, cuz it's possible we did, one thing that it wasn't though, was ignored.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Echo Base Trooper »

Dr. Hayus wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 5:59 pm
Thanks for everything thus far! What happened to Slimy Piece of Worm Ridden Filth? Also, was the Tamtel that protects your rep ever released? Thanks!
All I know is that I was asked to leave it off of this list. And no, that Tamtel wasn't ever released.
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Dr. Hayus »

Thanks for the reply, and shame. I was hoping for a bit more something for a shot in the arm for Agents in the Court. Though I think the new Chewie could be a great rep!

Thanks again and take care!

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Brazen »

Its just not on PT to determine if cards are OP, it's PTs job to test interactions and report games. So Hayes tests cards and organizes tests as a playtester, then has a seperate opinion as a player. My opinion as a player is that it got just a little too much help, but in my playtests the function of the new effect made the deck more efficient, as my activation was more reliable.

Fresh eyes are fine, I just don't think claiming some people have an agenda based on their opinion of card strength levels and bringing up random personal stuff is warranted here.

Relevant question though, can you put lukes stick back from hand with the new interrupt, and does it work everywhere?

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by arebelspy »

JarJarDrinks wrote:
Brazen wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 5:07 pm
Is this real? Why are people so offended by criticism of cards?
most people arent.
The thread got hostile cause someone was.

The d&d posts are encouraging though (from Justin and CKelly).

Side ramble for a minute.

[Redacted comment I thought was a funny "lol yeah right" but instead people took offense to.]
Last edited by arebelspy on October 15th, 2020, 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by chriskelly »

Dr. Hayus wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 6:18 pm
Thanks for the reply, and shame. I was hoping for a bit more something for a shot in the arm for Agents in the Court. Though I think the new Chewie could be a great rep!

Thanks again and take care!
the card is going to be reworked.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by allstarz97 »

arebelspy wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 6:42 pm
JarJarDrinks wrote:
Brazen wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 5:07 pm
Is this real? Why are people so offended by criticism of cards?
most people arent.
The thread got hostile cause someone was.

The d&d posts are encouraging though (from Justin and CKelly).

Side ramble for a minute.

I read a book called Jackaroo as a kid and in it the local lord was upping the taxes on the peasants, but put out a rumor it would be this huge jump. Everyone was worried, like how can we pay for this, etc. Then it was a moderate increase, and everyone was relieved and happy about the level of increase.

And the lord made a comment to someone about how if they're expecting something and you make it a bit better, they're happy, but if he'd have just come out with the moderate increase to begin with, they would have been unhappy. And that's the moment I knew I wanted to own multiple properties and retire in my 30s.

Sometimes I wonder if d&d does this--put out a few obviously OP cards in a spoiler list on purpose so they can tweak them down and people are relieved and listened to and happy about everything.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by arebelspy »

lol

And then I had kids

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by allstarz97 »

arebelspy wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 6:42 pm
JarJarDrinks wrote:
Brazen wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 5:07 pm
Is this real? Why are people so offended by criticism of cards?
most people arent.
The thread got hostile cause someone was.

The d&d posts are encouraging though (from Justin and CKelly).

Side ramble for a minute.

I read a book called Jackaroo as a kid and in it the local lord was upping the taxes on the peasants, but put out a rumor it would be this huge jump. Everyone was worried, like how can we pay for this, etc. Then it was a moderate increase, and everyone was relieved and happy about the level of increase.

And the lord made a comment to someone about how if they're expecting something and you make it a bit better, they're happy, but if he'd have just come out with the moderate increase to begin with, they would have been unhappy.

Sometimes I wonder if d&d does this--put out a few obviously OP cards in a spoiler list on purpose so they can tweak them down and people are relieved and listened to and happy about everything.
So in insinuation is that D&D has had their feelings hurt too many times in the past, so to prevent that from ever happening again, we push a card through months and months of testing and changes, all with the hidden master plan of knowing it's never actually intended to make it through? And that this fake card can be found by the community and pointed out as a DD mess up? So the community is rejoicing because they had a "gotcha moment" and/or feel like their voice was heard all while DD cheers behind closed doors like "got em"?

wow.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by chriskelly »

arebelspy- that is insulting to the people that put work into this set. While your insight into the card production process is limited by your childhood books and imagination, I’m beyond proud of the IMMENSE amount of work d&d, the playtesters, GEMP slicers, and proofers have put into these cards over the course of the past few months and that you even post such a crazy theory is disrespectful to everyone who helped craft them.

This was an incredible team effort where I don’t ever remember cards going thru so many revisions and adjustments from the amazing playtesting efforts and proofing work and sincere positive and open reception to that feedback by D&D.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Berm »

allstarz97 wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 6:52 pm

So in insinuation is that D&D has had their feelings hurt too many times in the past, so to prevent that from ever happening again, we push a card through months and months of testing and changes, all with the hidden master plan of knowing it's never actually intended to make it through? And that this fake card can be found by the community and pointed out as a DD mess up? So the community is rejoicing because they had a "gotcha moment" and/or feel like their voice was heard all while DD cheers behind closed doors like "got em"?

wow.
sounds really simple and easy to do when you put it like that.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Baron Soontir Fel »

Saladas wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 12:52 pm
kryptofis wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 12:04 pm
Well done with destiny numbers, ppl, I really like that. Some DS interrupts could have been less than 4, but overall a step in a good direction!
Hdv making all inquisitors destiny 4 and 5 is a little excessive no?

Agreed. That really could be put down a bit. :???

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by arebelspy »

Oh jeez, I didn't mean that to be an offensive comment. I thought it would be funny. Feels like it was just read that way because I was the one who posted it.

Obviously there's no conspiracy for something like that, so if something powerful slips through and people notice it, it's more like "oh yeah we meant to do that, haha".

Do you actually read it as me thinking there's some conspiracy, rather than a funny joke about d&d releasing OP text so they can "correct" it?

Justin's comment, if he had read it as funny, would be the same, but obvious satire. Chris's comment about my imagination limited to childhood books just felt rude.

I realize a lot of people have been working hard for a long time on this set. I have no complaints about it at all. I say ship it as is.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by allstarz97 »

arebelspy wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 7:27 pm
Oh jeez, I didn't mean that to be an offensive comment. I thought it would be funny. Feels like it was just read that way because I was the one who posted it.

Obviously there's no conspiracy for something like that, so if something powerful slips through and people notice it, it's more like "oh yeah we meant to do that, haha".

Do you actually read it as me thinking there's some conspiracy, rather than a funny joke about d&d releasing OP text so they can "correct" it?

Justin's comment, if he had read it as funny, would be the same, but obvious satire. Chris's comment about my imagination limited to childhood books just felt rude.

I realize a lot of people have been working hard for a long time on this set. I have no complaints about it at all. I say ship it as is.
Joe,

I didn't take it really to heart, like either you're joking or you're crazy so it was no skin off my nose. Wouldn't hate if the last 4-5 posts were just deleted though? LIke I thought my timeline one was a good one and important to read for anyone who thought DD wasn't really listening to PT (especially PT reports - special shout outs to the warriors who logged tons of games) and would hate it if that discussion was derailed.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by fungineer »

seitaer wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 2:05 pm

Literally anyone of any skill level can be a play tester.
Can confirm
* Congrats if you read through my whole post. Have a cookie, it's in your cache.
* https://gemp.starwarsccg.org/gemp-swccg Play for free, even if you don't own good cards. Then play in real life, with real people, even if you aren't any good.
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by allstarz97 »

fungineer wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 7:46 pm
seitaer wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 2:05 pm

Literally anyone of any skill level can be a play tester.
Can confirm
This made me lol

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by CRG »

allstarz97 wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 7:51 pm
fungineer wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 7:46 pm
seitaer wrote:
October 15th, 2020, 2:05 pm

Literally anyone of any skill level can be a play tester.
Can confirm
This made me lol
x2, and have enjoyed my PT games vs fungineer.
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