Getting the Reset convo going

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Corran »

shawnd1984 wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 4:59 pm
Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 4:39 pm
I always support drawing more battle destinies.
Agreed to a point. Gift of the Mentor doesn't bother me, because it's a lost interrupt. Not a fan typically of destiny addition included on character gametext... Typically.
At the end of the battle, I don't want a reserve deck, even if there were 57 cards there to start


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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by ElDuderino »

I don't know much about the game before the previous reset, or how large the card pool was, but I imagine that it was drawing from less Star Wars IP? Meaning, I'm guessing it was all prequels (and maybe Clone Wars?). Of course, I could very well be wrong! But now we've got cards from the prequels, Clone Wars, Rebels, Rogue One, Solo, Ep7, Ep8, etc. Including some cool objectives that allow folks without pricey collections to play fun reasonably competitive decks (Diplo, NI, OA, Map, etc...). And I'd guess that before a reset were to become a reality, we'd have new cards/objectives from even more new Star Wars content.

To me, losing all those cards from different Star Wars eras in a reset would be a big loss. Keeping many of them in a post-reset base set would make the base set far too large. And if you were a person without a very valuable collection and relied on cheap v-cards in your deck building, I can see being pretty frustrated with the time and money you spent printing v-slips, and doing arts and crafts to get those decks together, only to be forced to trash them.

Maybe folks, particularly casual players, who lived through the last reset can share what that's like for a player.

Sorry if this has already been covered. I only skimmed the thread.

FWIW, I'm ambivalent about a reset.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

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sac89837 wrote: Also with zero power creep tier 1 decks become stagnant as no new cards can be added to them.
Right. Power creep is necessary, and even fun!

It gets a bad rap when it gets too ridiculous, which is when it's time to reset the whole power level. When it gets to that point (I don't think we're there yet, but v14 stuff does look bonkers), tweaking a half dozen or a dozen cards ain't gonna do it.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by alphabeta »

@Greg

Yep.

I dont think a reset brings a significant number of new or returning players to the game. Covid and various life events do.
However Im pretty sure that a reset causes players to leave.

Afaik the French player community was lost to the previous reset, wasnt it?

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by arebelspy »


alphabeta wrote:Yep.

I dont think a reset brings a significant number of new or returning players to the game.
We have names of people who have said they aren't interested in playing but would post reset.

Chu and Cellucci to name two.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

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arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 5:41 pm
alphabeta wrote:Yep.

I dont think a reset brings a significant number of new or returning players to the game.
We have names of people who have said they aren't interested in playing but would post reset.

Chu and Cellucci to name two.
2 isnt a significant number.
Unless you weight that with their player skills, which are indeed pretty high 😉

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

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ElDuderino wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 5:14 pm
I don't know much about the game before the previous reset, or how large the card pool was, but I imagine that it was drawing from less Star Wars IP? Meaning, I'm guessing it was all prequels (and maybe Clone Wars?). Of course, I could very well be wrong! But now we've got cards from the prequels, Clone Wars, Rebels, Rogue One, Solo, Ep7, Ep8, etc. Including some cool objectives that allow folks without pricey collections to play fun reasonably competitive decks (Diplo, NI, OA, Map, etc...). And I'd guess that before a reset were to become a reality, we'd have new cards/objectives from even more new Star Wars content.
While I’m definitely not in favour of a reset, one of the benefits would be moving mechanics from existing virtual cards to those from the new content. For example, virtual premiere Luke could have his game text freed up to go on a Poe instead.
Set 0 basically doesn’t touch any of the Disney era content, starting over with those stories in mind might be a good way to plan out releases, rather than reactively as new stuff becomes available.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by sac89837 »

arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 5:38 pm
sac89837 wrote: Also with zero power creep tier 1 decks become stagnant as no new cards can be added to them.
Right. Power creep is necessary, and even fun!

It gets a bad rap when it gets too ridiculous, which is when it's time to reset the whole power level. When it gets to that point (I don't think we're there yet, but v14 stuff does look bonkers), tweaking a half dozen or a dozen cards ain't gonna do it.
I think it's a question of methodologies. I view the creation of a base set and reset strategy as a colossal undertaking that could produce no tangible results for a very long time and alienate players.

Conversely we could nerf a dozen cards, come out with two dozen more and go have fun in the OCS next month easily. My view point comes 20+ years in software development and seeing what projects succeed and which fail and why. Just my .02 cents.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by TacoBill »

sac89837 wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 4:15 pm
Due to GEMP and then need for every card to be programmed before being release, unintended interactions are not a large worry. We also don't fundamentally change the rules of the game, like Yu-Gi-Oh going from Master Rule 3 -> Master Rule 4 if you get the reference.

Power creep opens doors to creating counters or boosting decks that suddenly weak to a certain strategy. For instance now EBO could certainly use help against HDv. These are the easiest cards to design. Also with zero power creep tier 1 decks become stagnant as no new cards can be added to them. I certainly can't make a new ISB agent, bounty hunter or smuggler right now.

The hardest part of design (besides coordinating with player cards) is creating new mechanics that players find interesting but not broken. See V14 Rey.
My personal problem with the type of power creep we have is something like HDv that (presumably) was designed and released knowing the EBO/YOps matchup was going to be so one-sided out of the gate. So instead of releasing it with an inherent weakness and possibly releasing helpers later, we now need to release powerful cards for EBO/YOps to have them catch back up.

I understand the design philosophy of releasing cards to be played rather than sit in a binder because D&D is volunteers and its not worth it to take up their time with a card no one will play. But we're heading in the opposite direction where decks are predominantly cards from VSet4 and on.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Wokling »

arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 5:41 pm
alphabeta wrote:Yep.

I dont think a reset brings a significant number of new or returning players to the game.
We have names of people who have said they aren't interested in playing but would post reset.

Chu and Cellucci to name two.
I also said this earlier on in this thread.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

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sac89837 wrote:
arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 5:38 pm
sac89837 wrote: Also with zero power creep tier 1 decks become stagnant as no new cards can be added to them.
Right. Power creep is necessary, and even fun!

It gets a bad rap when it gets too ridiculous, which is when it's time to reset the whole power level. When it gets to that point (I don't think we're there yet, but v14 stuff does look bonkers), tweaking a half dozen or a dozen cards ain't gonna do it.
I think it's a question of methodologies. I view the creation of a base set and reset strategy as a colossal undertaking that could produce no tangible results for a very long time and alienate players.

Conversely we could nerf a dozen cards, come out with two dozen more and go have fun in the OCS next month easily. My view point comes 20+ years in software development and seeing what projects succeed and which fail and why. Just my .02 cents.
Why not the latter scenario to improve the game in the short term while planning for the former in the long term?

The quick fix scenario won't solve the underlying problems, which will only be exacerbated by new sets. It kicks the can down the road.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, it should. It will be good for the game to get some of those fixes, just like the last two rounds of tweaks were.

But ultimately power creep happens, is good, and can be planned for over a long period by doing planned resets, learning from our mistakes, taking the best stuff, and then moving forward.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Wokling »

sac89837 wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 6:04 pm
arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 5:38 pm
sac89837 wrote: Also with zero power creep tier 1 decks become stagnant as no new cards can be added to them.
Right. Power creep is necessary, and even fun!

It gets a bad rap when it gets too ridiculous, which is when it's time to reset the whole power level. When it gets to that point (I don't think we're there yet, but v14 stuff does look bonkers), tweaking a half dozen or a dozen cards ain't gonna do it.
I think it's a question of methodologies. I view the creation of a base set and reset strategy as a colossal undertaking that could produce no tangible results for a very long time and alienate players.

Conversely we could nerf a dozen cards, come out with two dozen more and go have fun in the OCS next month easily. My view point comes 20+ years in software development and seeing what projects succeed and which fail and why. Just my .02 cents.
I want to see what D&D has in store. I want to see their fix. I view any attempt to rein in power creep and certain mechanics in the near future as a positive adjustment. The baseline of power in the game is very high and D&D's recent track record has been underwhelming, so I'm not optimistic that a small number of nerfs and additional releases will fix the fundamental issues or enable players who are unhappy with the meta (if not alienated) to enjoy their OCS games next month.

The failure of D&D and the PC to institutionally acknowledge the reset as possibility, to take a hand in exploring what that means or what it will look like when there have been loud calls for one in the past year and a half, is very discouraging. The argument that a reset is a colossal undertaking and thus should not be an option is a bad one. Colossal undertakings require work, and time, but there are players and volunteers who are willing to do the work and find the time. It does not need to happen over night. If time and effort are put into a reset, it can very well produce tangible results and encourage new players to join or rejoin the game.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

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Wokling wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 6:58 pm
I want to see what D&D has in store. I want to see their fix. I view any attempt to rein in power creep and certain mechanics in the near future as a positive adjustment. The baseline of power in the game is very high and D&D's recent track record has been underwhelming, so I'm not optimistic that a small number of nerfs and additional releases will fix the fundamental issues or enable players who are unhappy with the meta (if not alienated) to enjoy their OCS games next month.

The failure of D&D and the PC to institutionally acknowledge the reset as possibility, to take a hand in exploring what that means or what it will look like when there have been loud calls for one in the past year and a half, is very discouraging. The argument that a reset is a colossal undertaking and thus should not be an option is a bad one. Colossal undertakings require work, and time, but there are players and volunteers who are willing to do the work and find the time. It does not need to happen over night. If time and effort are put into a reset, it can very well produce tangible results and encourage new players to join or rejoin the game.
To be clear I don't have the power to make policy. I am just an ideas guy.

All of my project management experience has taught me to think and plan iteratively. Waterfall type model projects always sound great in theory, but never turn out the way an organization wants. The previous reset gave us quite a while of really terrible star wars ccg. I would rather avoid that if possible.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Hayes »

Hayes wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 1:29 am
note: if/when another reset happens, sets 1, 2 and 3 should all be 90% complete when the base set is released. they should be released every 4-6 weeks so we have a v-card pool of ~200 curated cards within 3-5 months. not only does this help solve for the meta stagnation problem, it also builds an incredible cushion for design to start work on subsequent sets, thus ensuring more frequent and timely releases.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by sac89837 »

TacoBill wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 6:35 pm
My personal problem with the type of power creep we have is something like HDv that (presumably) was designed and released knowing the EBO/YOps matchup was going to be so one-sided out of the gate. So instead of releasing it with an inherent weakness and possibly releasing helpers later, we now need to release powerful cards for EBO/YOps to have them catch back up.

I understand the design philosophy of releasing cards to be played rather than sit in a binder because D&D is volunteers and its not worth it to take up their time with a card no one will play. But we're heading in the opposite direction where decks are predominantly cards from VSet4 and on.
I get this complaint, as a YOPS fan I was not happy with this interaction.

The card bloat/Fun Fred cards discussion is an interesting one and worth having I think. There is such an aversion to Fun Fred cards after the Sonn era, it would be interesting to see if the player base would like us to more toward the middle of the two extremes.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by seitaer »

Wokling wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 6:40 pm
arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 5:41 pm
alphabeta wrote:Yep.

I dont think a reset brings a significant number of new or returning players to the game.
We have names of people who have said they aren't interested in playing but would post reset.

Chu and Cellucci to name two.
I also said this earlier on in this thread.
One thing that we definitely should avoid at all costs with any future reset is rely on the opinion of a very small group of people to implement it. I'd love to have them back playing the game, but I'm not willing to sacrifice 5-10 other people for them. The player base is far larger than it was in 2014, with a lot more than just the people playing in majors mattering.

I know that's not exactly what you said, but I know the majority of people that play this game currently don't even know this discussion is happening.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Hayes »

seitaer wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 8:21 pm
Wokling wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 6:40 pm
arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 5:41 pm
alphabeta wrote:Yep.

I dont think a reset brings a significant number of new or returning players to the game.
We have names of people who have said they aren't interested in playing but would post reset.

Chu and Cellucci to name two.
I also said this earlier on in this thread.
One thing that we definitely should avoid at all costs with any future reset is rely on the opinion of a very small group of people to implement it. I'd love to have them back playing the game, but I'm not willing to sacrifice 5-10 other people for them. The player base is far larger than it was in 2014, with a lot more than just the people playing in majors mattering.

I know that's not exactly what you said, but I know the majority of people that play this game currently don't even know this discussion is happening.
Forgive me if I'm not understanding you correctly. It sounds like you assume that these players (who apparently don't visit the forums or attend major events) prefer the status quo. Why should that be the case?

If these players don't have a strong interest in the state of the game - but like to play casually - why wouldn't they simply continue doing so after a reset?

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

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Hayes wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 8:55 pm
If these players don't have a strong interest in the state of the game - but like to play casually - why wouldn't they simply continue doing so after a reset?
As a more casual player, who likes to go to tournaments when possible but usually plays in-person kitchen table games, a reset is quite annoying as it sweeps away tons of decks I have physically built and like to tweak as new sets come out. I wouldn't just up and quit, but it would be very discouraging to basically start over with everything, and it would kill at lot of the interest I started to build in going to tournaments before covid.

I do have a strong interest in the state of the game in that as more sets are released, I have more interesting strategies to try. My interest in the state of the game just doesn't extend very far into the state of the highest levels of competitive play, though obviously that has to be one of the priorities in designing cards. I also don't play online, so I don't get a dozen plus games a week to get tired of things or get on board with the Tier 0.5 stuff as fast as others might. A slowly expanding card pool (the status quo) is preferable for me, and I would guess for a lot of other casual players for similar reasons.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

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arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 6:46 pm
The quick fix scenario won't solve the underlying problems, which will only be exacerbated by new sets. It kicks the can down the road.
You are stating this like it is a truth to be accepted, but I really don't think that is accurate. Furthermore, it's not like we would implement tweaks and virtual card deletions without a great deal of thought, discussion, and often testing. Ironically, a reset would probably be the more aptly named "quick fix scenario", versus assessing hundreds of individual virtual cards and meta scenarios to figure out what surgical and precise changes we can make to improve the game for everyone. Not to say a reset wouldn't be simple, but it would certainly be a large reduction in factors we would need to assess by elimination of the majority of the virtual card pool.

Has the strategy of "making several tweaks to existing virtual cards over time to improve the game" been so clearly employed before? If not, would you not like to see if that can be an effective response before labeling it as ineffective as you have?

I also do not think a convincing argument has been presented for "reset = player growth vs no reset". It still looks glaringly apparent to me that a reset would lose us a lot of existing players, while gaining us... less than five?
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by beebopbananas »

Yeaahh, no thank you. I think a reset would cause more harm than good at this point. Lots of games being played, lots of new players, great turnout for tournaments, some OG players coming back, GEMP update looking sweet, new refreshing formats, more playtesting and game data then ever. Let the game breath.

I get that from a competitive stand point folks may be frustrated but truth be told, as casual player, I have a hard time making sense of it all. The arguments on the CBT; opposing philosophies on varience; the constant power creep discussions before, during and after every set; the renewal of the reset topic every few months; it's all a little exhausting to follow. Perhaps competitive folk need to come to some sort consensus and create a tournament format with a special rule set. Bans and card quotas on the most abusive stuff comes to mind but I'm sure theres other ways. That way you'll can create the perfect playing environment for competitive play while casual players can enjoy the game as is. That's just my .02, I could be wrong.
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