Let's talk about Resets

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Apollyon
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Let's talk about Resets

Post by Apollyon »

We discussed Resets a bunch in Slack this morning. It started with R3-T2's errata (how it doesn't need it), then there was discussion about errataing the errata (so that it would actually work), and we got into the depths of Resets. This question came up:
i'm dark side. i steal my opponent's mercenary armor (from sabacc or something). then i deploy mercenary armor (armor = 4) and mandalorian armor (armor = 5) on the same character. what's their armor?
There's a lot going on with this question, and someone immediately got it wrong because of the Competing Resets rule. I think that we should change the rules around resetting.

Reset
The changing of a value to a specific new value (such
as power=0). When a value is reset (e.g., ion cannons,
crashed vehicles, weapons that set forfeit = 0, Lateral
Damage), that value is unmodifiable until restored to
normal (or until the affected card leaves play ). Some
cards define their value in their game text, such as
Jawa or Brainiac. This is not resetting and may be
modified.

The problem comes in when a card doesn't have a value and has multiple effects that give it a fixed value. The first one to apply is the set, and the later ones are resets. Of note, the Reset rules don't mention what you do if another card gives it a new value. We just sorta assumed that the first one is the set and that later ones are resets.

This got messier because someone suggested combining several cards that gave people armor (values of 3, 4, and 5). So we now have an additional memory problem of which one was first.

Reset is a special case of a larger idea (setting) that we should look at using instead. All resets would now set the value. If a card sets its own value, that would be treated as the base value and not setting the value. The case of "which armor is first" goes away as we now reuse the same "Competing sets" rule. I don't think any useful interactions change, and it cleans up some corner cases.



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mingtown
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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by mingtown »

Clickbait!
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AdmiralMotti89
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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by AdmiralMotti89 »

mingtown wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 2:55 pm
Clickbait!
I know, right?
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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by rhendon »

mingtown wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 2:55 pm
Clickbait!
I was thinking Joe must have had a productive morning.

fungineer
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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by fungineer »

Apollyon wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 2:54 pm
We discussed Resets a bunch in Slack this morning. It started with R3-T2's errata (how it doesn't need it), then there was discussion about errataing the errata (so that it would actually work), and we got into the depths of Resets. This question came up:
i'm dark side. i steal my opponent's mercenary armor (from sabacc or something). then i deploy mercenary armor (armor = 4) and mandalorian armor (armor = 5) on the same character. what's their armor?
There's a lot going on with this question, and someone immediately got it wrong because of the Competing Resets rule. I think that we should change the rules around resetting.

Reset
The changing of a value to a specific new value (such
as power=0). When a value is reset (e.g., ion cannons,
crashed vehicles, weapons that set forfeit = 0, Lateral
Damage), that value is unmodifiable until restored to
normal (or until the affected card leaves play ). Some
cards define their value in their game text, such as
Jawa or Brainiac. This is not resetting and may be
modified.

The problem comes in when a card doesn't have a value and has multiple effects that give it a fixed value. The first one to apply is the set, and the later ones are resets. Of note, the Reset rules don't mention what you do if another card gives it a new value. We just sorta assumed that the first one is the set and that later ones are resets.

This got messier because someone suggested combining several cards that gave people armor (values of 3, 4, and 5). So we now have an additional memory problem of which one was first.

Reset is a special case of a larger idea (setting) that we should look at using instead. All resets would now set the value. If a card sets its own value, that would be treated as the base value and not setting the value. The case of "which armor is first" goes away as we now reuse the same "Competing sets" rule. I don't think any useful interactions change, and it cleans up some corner cases.
I feel like this should be a gemp rules thread...
I know it's not your question, but how do you deploy merc. armor on a DS rebel?
I"ll dig into it later unless one of the others does first.
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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by quesosauce37 »

what you did there



i see it
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Apollyon
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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by Apollyon »

fungineer wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 3:54 pm
I feel like this should be a gemp rules thread...
I know it's not your question, but how do you deploy merc. armor on a DS rebel?
I"ll dig into it later unless one of the others does first.
You win it in Sabacc. (And put it on your converted Luke from Join Me!)

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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by Echo Base Trooper »

Apollyon wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 5:01 pm
(And put it on your converted Luke from Join Me!)
Luke becomes an Imperial instead of a Rebel when he crosses over.
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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by arebelspy »

fungineer wrote:
Apollyon wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 2:54 pm
We discussed Resets a bunch in Slack this morning. It started with R3-T2's errata (how it doesn't need it), then there was discussion about errataing the errata (so that it would actually work), and we got into the depths of Resets. This question came up:
i'm dark side. i steal my opponent's mercenary armor (from sabacc or something). then i deploy mercenary armor (armor = 4) and mandalorian armor (armor = 5) on the same character. what's their armor?
There's a lot going on with this question, and someone immediately got it wrong because of the Competing Resets rule. I think that we should change the rules around resetting.

Reset
The changing of a value to a specific new value (such
as power=0). When a value is reset (e.g., ion cannons,
crashed vehicles, weapons that set forfeit = 0, Lateral
Damage), that value is unmodifiable until restored to
normal (or until the affected card leaves play ). Some
cards define their value in their game text, such as
Jawa or Brainiac. This is not resetting and may be
modified.

The problem comes in when a card doesn't have a value and has multiple effects that give it a fixed value. The first one to apply is the set, and the later ones are resets. Of note, the Reset rules don't mention what you do if another card gives it a new value. We just sorta assumed that the first one is the set and that later ones are resets.

This got messier because someone suggested combining several cards that gave people armor (values of 3, 4, and 5). So we now have an additional memory problem of which one was first.

Reset is a special case of a larger idea (setting) that we should look at using instead. All resets would now set the value. If a card sets its own value, that would be treated as the base value and not setting the value. The case of "which armor is first" goes away as we now reuse the same "Competing sets" rule. I don't think any useful interactions change, and it cleans up some corner cases.
I feel like this should be a gemp rules thread...
I know it's not your question, but how do you deploy merc. armor on a DS rebel?
I"ll dig into it later unless one of the others does first.
That was a bad example. Which is why I suggested the better one listed in the OP.

Biker scout gear, an entire legion, and mandalorian armor deploy on irol, giving him armor = 3, armor = 4, and armor = 5.

Note that you do NOT automatically reset to the lowest value. You reset to the lower of the later 2 deployed, because the first one deployed defines the value, and the later two each reset it and are competing resets. So his armor is either 3 or 4 (4 IFF the 3 was deployed first, then the four and five in either order. He'd be armor 5 IFF only 2 were deployed and Mando armor was the second).

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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by Echo Base Trooper »

arebelspy wrote:
May 13th, 2020, 5:25 pm
That was a bad example. Which is why I suggested the better one listed in the OP.

Biker scout gear, an entire legion, and mandalorian armor deploy on irol, giving him armor = 3, armor = 4, and armor = 5.
Also a bad example. An Entire Legion Of My Best Troops specifically says it doesn't affect biker scouts.
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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by arebelspy »

Okay, then the other 2?

With both out, it will be armor 3 or 5, whichever was deployed last. It will not just be the lower, 3.

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Re: Let's talk about Resets

Post by mrfahrenheit7 »

quesosauce37 wrote:what you did there



i see it
LolImage
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