Set 13 Full Spoiler List

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Berm »

Was thinking about Visage (v) some more. The 1 damage that never turns off for LS is not in the spirit of the game. There should always be an ability to stop something from doing damage.

I get that Visage (v) does less damage than Visage, so you may want to give it more protections, but it also does more than Visage does with the downloading a saber. I think the reluctance to make the effect uncancelable is because it has the built in saber download. In that case, I think it that text would be better served on a different card.

Instead of making Visage (v) uncancelable, what if you just made it go to used if canceled? DS loses out on the saber download, but both losses are nullified and DS gets a floating 7 back in their deck. It is still grabbable and can be deployed for no force loss if DS is flipped.

I'd still rather see it cancelable ala Visage (non-v).



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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Bib Fortuna »

In my opinion, the wording of the character restrictions on Shadow Collective is a bit clunky and could be refined a bit. Current text:

“For remainder of game, you may not deploy cards with ability (or [Episode I] droids) except characters with "Black Sun," "Crimson Dawn," or "Hutt" in lore, assassins, gangsters, [Episode I] bounty hunters, and [Independent] starships.”

A better wording, from a grammatical perspective, would be:

“For remainder of game, you may not deploy [Episode 1] droids, or cards with ability except [Independent] starships, assassins, gangsters, [Episode 1] bounty hunters, or characters with “Black Sun,” “Crimson Dawn,” or “Hutt” in lore.”
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by alex-1 »

Great set in general. But so many LS decks that needed a boost, and HITCO/LMFBM got it? Hitco was good enough, Tom Haid won a major with it. Makes absolutely no sense to me

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by WiseMarsellus »

i had not even realized kessel run wasn't immune to alter. i think that makes it more important. i'm assuming there is text space issue on the run itself, i might suggest making kessel v a drain 3 system
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by WiseMarsellus »

alternatively, han v could work while at kessel v only, or something along those lines. my thought is mainly that wys needs to have an independent reason to play kessel v even in games where they know their kessel run cannot be canceled. otherwise i expect it will just do kessel nonv
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Jnapolit31 »

alex-1 wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:45 am
Great set in general. But so many LS decks that needed a boost, and HITCO/LMFBM got it? Hitco was good enough, Tom Haid won a major with it. Makes absolutely no sense to me
Not a knock on him by any means - just the inaccuracy of the “data point” you’re citing - but Tom Haid’s last major victory was in 2018, and he did not play HITCO either day.
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by chriskelly »

alex-1 wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:45 am
Hitco was good enough, Tom Haid won a major with it. Makes absolutely no sense to me
Would you be willing to re-examine your opinion at all if your found out some of the facts that supported it turned out to be untrue?

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by chriskelly »

WiseMarsellus wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 8:07 am
alternatively, han v could work while at kessel v only, or something along those lines. my thought is mainly that wys needs to have an independent reason to play kessel v even in games where they know their kessel run cannot be canceled. otherwise i expect it will just do kessel nonv
I think we are okay with that deck building choice. If a player thinks they can get away with the old Kessel because they will avoid Oo-ta and then they get blown out by it, I agree that is a feel bad moment. But if they make that choice and get blown out by Alter (v), I really have a hard time believing that they should feel shocked, upset or surprised that their non-[A] effect got canceled by Alter during the course of an event.

We are also trying to avoid the “stacking” meta and stacking Kessel for drain 3 and cantina for drain 2 with high forfeit guys (and a whole
Slew of new dudes with cool text) played into our decision to not let Kessel be a drain of 3.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Xanth »

Jnapolit31 wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 9:09 am
alex-1 wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:45 am
Great set in general. But so many LS decks that needed a boost, and HITCO/LMFBM got it? Hitco was good enough, Tom Haid won a major with it. Makes absolutely no sense to me
Not a knock on him by any means - just the inaccuracy of the “data point” you’re citing - but Tom Haid’s last major victory was in 2018, and he did not play HITCO either day.
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by alex-1 »

chriskelly wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 10:06 am
alex-1 wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:45 am
Hitco was good enough, Tom Haid won a major with it. Makes absolutely no sense to me
Would you be willing to re-examine your opinion at all if your found out some of the facts that supported it turned out to be untrue?
Thanks for your reply! No, I do not need to re-examine my opinion. I guess I am such a big fan of Tom "Mr. QMC" Haid, that I thougth he'd won that tournament I had in mind. But it wasn't Tom, it was Reid Smith, winning the MPC 2018 with HITCO. So, my bad. I think you'll agree with me, that my point was, that a major tournament was won with Hitco, and not that it was particulary won by Tom, because I referred to HITCO being a good deck already, that had won a major. So my opinion will not change, I think HITCO was strong enough and there are plenty of LS decks, that needed that boost more than Hitco.

See:
viewtopic.php?f=1068&t=69904

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by chriskelly »

Thank you for letting me know that facts will not impact your opinion. It will save me the time of pointing to the actual data of the deck’s lack of success in majors over the past two years and lack of its frequency and prevalence.

Anecdotally I completely see why people are flipping out- but we are taking a more data driven approach thanks to the great resources EBT and tacobill have given us, as well as reliance on the results of the most active playtest team in recent memory. And I think once everything is finalized and people start brewing decks and playing the cards, they will find 13 + cbt errata is really fun and fresh.

But obviously if minds and opinions are made up already and won’t be re-examined based upon the results from an event from two years ago, I cannot do a single thing about that.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by chrknudsen2 »

I've been playing around with HD(v) a bit and it seems so much fun and extremely thematic. Nice job on that one!

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Peter-Let-The-Wookie-Win »

Excuse my ingnorance but wth is
TERÄS KÄSI"

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Hazardville »

This point seems to keep getting made, and I thought it was worth addressing it:

People seem to keep saying "HITCO was good enough! It was already a tier 1 deck!"

There were 6 HITCO decks at the 64-player MPC this year. None made the final 4, and none of the top 4 switched to HITCO for the playoff rounds.

There were also 6 HITCO decks in the 64-player TMW field (involving 128 LS decks). None advanced from pod play, nor did any of the playoff contenders choose HITCO for any of their playoff matches, although they did choose QMC, TIGIH, and RST (even discounting Joe Olson playing a Chief Chirpa Hut deck).

The changes both by errata and new cards are liable to leave Court/CCT at the top of the meta, largely due to TRM being pushed out of tier 1. Those decks are widely considered to have a much better matchup against HITCO than TRM.

Also, more anecdotal than anything, but in the SWCCG discussion slack channel leading up to TMW:

"chriskelly 5:44 PM 8/13/20
Agree on hitco being crappy. A fact I’ve discovered far too late in my testing. Thus the call for decks. So for I have 2 contenders. "

None of that leads me to think that HITCO would have just magically risen to become a Tier 1 deck without additional helpers just because TRM left a void. That doesn't change the weaknesses of the deck or its matchups. I say this as someone who played a lot of HITCO in the OCS (and none in the last two months), but HITCO was not a top tier deck.

With the helpers? Yeah, with them it has a chance. But let's not pretend that Set 13 is on purpose boosting a top tier deck into Tier 0. That's an inaccurate description of what is happening.
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by chriskelly »

Peter-Let-The-wookiee-Win wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:30 pm
Excuse my ingnorance but wth is
TERÄS KÄSI"

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It’s the form of martial arts and defense that Dryden Vos taught Qi’ra. It’s a sweet throw away line in Solo (like the Colo Claw Fish or Aurra Sing ones) that references other items in the Star Wars universe.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by chriskelly »

To add to Hazardville’s (super accurate and thorough) post- a lot of people grew tired of TRM (and wesa package), but no matter what we did, it always seemed to be half the field. We wanted to slim that a little bit. But if we did that, we felt we’d be spiraling more down the “scrub” meta we are (were?) very much in.

So we wanted to have a different platform to fill the “mains” void and HITCO (which goes second, starts a battleground and has some character restrictions) seems like a much more “fair” platform than TRM. But without helping it, as Hazardville points out, it still had its faults. So we bumped it (basically swapping out the wesa package for better and more thematic places and interrupts) in hopes that it will fill the trm void without taking over. I hope we got it right. Maybe we did, maybe we didn’t. If we didn’t, we don’t really fear changing it but we are comfortable with the how it has played out in testing.

But the fact that people were playing soooo much more TRM (or even starting chripa’s hut instead of this objective) shows where it was without the bumps.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by alex-1 »

chriskelly wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:13 pm
Thank you for letting me know that facts will not impact your opinion.
I have no idea how you can say such a generalization and why you have to be so personally. Discussion closed for me. And btw, you're not right with that.

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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Hazardville »

alex-1 wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 4:02 pm
chriskelly wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:13 pm
Thank you for letting me know that facts will not impact your opinion.
I have no idea how you can say such a generalization and why you have to be so personally. Discussion closed for me. And btw, you're not right with that.
You literally said:
"No, I do not need to re-examine my opinion.... So my opinion will not change...."
in a quoted response to:
Would you be willing to re-examine your opinion at all if your found out some of the facts that supported it turned out to be untrue?
If Chris misinterpreted you, how did you want that to be interpreted?
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Jnapolit31 »

alex-1 wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 4:02 pm
chriskelly wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:13 pm
Thank you for letting me know that facts will not impact your opinion.
I have no idea how you can say such a generalization and why you have to be so personally. Discussion closed for me. And btw, you're not right with that.
There was no generalization. He asked you politely if the basis for your stance was proven to be actually wrong would you reconsider your stance. You said no. And then he and Hazardville both divulged reasoning - based on tangible data and a broad, theoretical view of the game’s meta - on why HITCO was receiving these buffs.

And despite that you feel this way, I really don’t think most do: that it’s sound reasoning to point to a deck winning a major 32 months ago as a reason NOT to buff a certain deck. :???
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Re: Set 13 Full Spoiler List

Post by Rambows »

We will have to see what happens when everyone is brewing up new decks and see how many LS decks actually did get better. If none got better or worse (MWYHL obviously), if at Worlds 2-4 decks are predominantly played throughout, the next set or before that we will probably see major changes, and Design team will have their hands full. I have been on RTP lately because it actually does very well vs aliens. I was a big fan of set 9 even though it had some clunkers. Why? Because the focus was to give decks some much needed help, meanwhile making 2 decks super op. As long as other decks get the bump up to try to make them more competitive, I am alright with it. Only time will tell. I only dislike one card and that is the DS shield. One card to completely kill a deck probably isn't the best way to go about changing the deck or how people play it (even though very few of us do play it). I can't wait to see the cards in action, let's go!

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