DSII / RefII with shields?

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shirairyu
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DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by shirairyu »

What would you think about trying a new format taking RefII or DSII and adding starting effects and shields from RefIII?
Maybe would be a good step between for new players getting into the usage of shields and also protect from abusive and broken strategys without filling up the deck with counter-effects...

Do you think this idea would be stupid or would you give it a try?



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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by Berm »

Always thought it would be a great idea. Shields fixed a lot of problems, but RFIII caused probably an equal amount of problems.

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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by Gergall »

Some of the people who stop at Reflections 2 simply don't want episode 1 cards or virtual cards. You'd have to convince them to either use an Ep1 or Virtual Card for their starting effect though, no way around that.

---
For people who stop at Reflections 2, I always thought the best stepping stones would be to show them the Original Trilogy cards that were sprinkled into the Episode 1 sets. You've got a bunch of helper cards like Keeping The Empire Out Forever, We Shall Double Our Efforts, etc.

You've got the duel/lightsaber stuff which mostly just comes down to A Jedi's Resilience.

And you've got the new combo cards. These are really important because in a world without shields, you can start Secret Plans or Aim High as a combo card that also pulls some DBs for activation.
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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by fungineer »

Gergall wrote:
November 24th, 2020, 11:50 pm
Some of the people who stop at Reflections 2 simply don't want episode 1 cards or virtual cards. You'd have to convince them to either use an Ep1 or Virtual Card for their starting effect though, no way around that.

You can main deck the shields. :lol:
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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by TacoBill »

Gergall wrote:
November 24th, 2020, 11:50 pm
Some of the people who stop at Reflections 2 simply don't want episode 1 cards or virtual cards. You'd have to convince them to either use an Ep1 or Virtual Card for their starting effect though, no way around that.

---
For people who stop at Reflections 2, I always thought the best stepping stones would be to show them the Original Trilogy cards that were sprinkled into the Episode 1 sets. You've got a bunch of helper cards like Keeping The Empire Out Forever, We Shall Double Our Efforts, etc.

You've got the duel/lightsaber stuff which mostly just comes down to A Jedi's Resilience.

And you've got the new combo cards. These are really important because in a world without shields, you can start Secret Plans or Aim High as a combo card that also pulls some DBs for activation.
Premiere-Tatooine [no Ep1] + Knowledge and Defense v and Anger Fear Aggression v. Done.
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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by Corran »

I think having shields and SEs available in old formats would be really cool. I'd play P-SE+Shields in a heartbeat
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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by shirairyu »

Always thought it would be a great idea. Shields fixed a lot of problems, but RFIII caused probably an equal amount of problems.
-> I was talking about just taking the starting effect and shields from RefIII, not the other stuff
Some of the people who stop at Reflections 2 simply don't want episode 1 cards or virtual cards. You'd have to convince them to either use an Ep1 or Virtual Card for their starting effect though, no way around that.
right...I also maybe was like that people, but taking one single EPI card for Starting Effect into deck is not that bad when it repairs some broken gameplay.
I know people make the cut at PDSII or PRefII because they don't want a Darth Maul or Qui-Gon Jinn on table, or some other EP1 stuff like podracing or senate mixed together with the Original Trilogy Characters and their timeline because that would be kinda unrealistic. But just having a picture of Maul or Qui-Gon on the Starting Effect does not cause that problems, you can see it as a tribute to the past or sth....
For people who stop at Reflections 2, I always thought the best stepping stones would be to show them the Original Trilogy cards that were sprinkled into the Episode 1 sets. You've got a bunch of helper cards like Keeping The Empire Out Forever, We Shall Double Our Efforts, etc.

You've got the duel/lightsaber stuff which mostly just comes down to A Jedi's Resilience.

And you've got the new combo cards. These are really important because in a world without shields, you can start Secret Plans or Aim High as a combo card that also pulls some DBs for activation.
I am not familar to all OT-cards and newer combo cards yet, would be a possibility to also add them if it helps to keep up balance and does not cause new problems.
Premiere-Tatooine [no Ep1] + Knowledge and Defense v and Anger Fear Aggression v. Done.
sounds like a possible solution!
I think having shields and SEs available in old formats would be really cool. I'd play P-SE+Shields in a heartbeat
nice :-)

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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by shirairyu »

Premiere-Tatooine [no Ep1] + Knowledge and Defense v and Anger Fear Aggression v. Done.
...or maybe Decipher Cards no-EPI (except Starting Effect if they count as EPI cards).....or is there a point why to prefer the virtual Starting Effects?

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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by Hazardville »

shirairyu wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 2:46 pm
Premiere-Tatooine [no Ep1] + Knowledge and Defense v and Anger Fear Aggression v. Done.
...or maybe Decipher Cards no-EPI (except Starting Effect if they count as EPI cards).....or is there a point why to prefer the virtual Starting Effects?
I see little value in the mini-game of "which shields do I include in my under-starting effect cards", and getting and extra shield pull is all upside.
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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by shirairyu »

okay you are right, that maybe is more comfortable...I was just thinking about if the old starting effect would be just enogh to fix it..

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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by seitaer »

shirairyu wrote:
November 24th, 2020, 8:51 pm
What would you think about trying a new format taking RefII or DSII and adding starting effects and shields from RefIII?
Maybe would be a good step between for new players getting into the usage of shields and also protect from abusive and broken strategys without filling up the deck with counter-effects...

Do you think this idea would be stupid or would you give it a try?
I'm all for it

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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by Corran »

Hazardville wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 4:11 pm
shirairyu wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 2:46 pm
Premiere-Tatooine [no Ep1] + Knowledge and Defense v and Anger Fear Aggression v. Done.
...or maybe Decipher Cards no-EPI (except Starting Effect if they count as EPI cards).....or is there a point why to prefer the virtual Starting Effects?
I see little value in the mini-game of "which shields do I include in my under-starting effect cards", and getting and extra shield pull is all upside.
I like that mini-game, but not for this format. I'd 100% play in an open environment where AFAv and K&Dv were banned, so you had to use the Fear SEs.
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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by Hazardville »

Corran wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 4:41 pm
Hazardville wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 4:11 pm
shirairyu wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 2:46 pm
Premiere-Tatooine [no Ep1] + Knowledge and Defense v and Anger Fear Aggression v. Done.
...or maybe Decipher Cards no-EPI (except Starting Effect if they count as EPI cards).....or is there a point why to prefer the virtual Starting Effects?
I see little value in the mini-game of "which shields do I include in my under-starting effect cards", and getting and extra shield pull is all upside.
I like that mini-game, but not for this format. I'd 100% play in an open environment where AFAv and K&Dv were banned, so you had to use the Fear SEs.
Unless we're willing to put in a single shield called "Just Knock it the Hell Off" that cancels every card currently cancelled by a shield, I want no part of this. If we are shielding cards because we don't want people to use them, we should not put in any limitations which might make that not the case. If Revolution, Order to Engage, Beggar etc. are broken enough to warrant being shielded in a way that outright cancels them, then let's make sure that that's relevant.

I mean, I'd prefer that those cards just be banned period so we don't have to deal with stupid half-measures, but you know, for some reason that's a bad idea, so here we are.
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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by DS-61-4 »

What problem are we trying to solve here? If we are trying to create a format that will unite the P-DSII crowd with the people who play Open but are afraid of NPE, this is not the solution.

I can't speak for all of us, but I suspect a large portion of players who only do P-DSII or P-RefII (or CnoV) are not likely to play a format with shields. Given that this crowd is in it for the purity of the format and is not put off by the NPE (because there really isn't all that much abuse to begin with) there's no reason to sacrifice our values to play in a new format.

A shielded format would be to entice people who are turned off by the perceived NPE aspects of those formats and have already shown they don't care about mixing the OT with the George Lucas or Disney SW fanfiction movies - in which case, what's the point of a new format with shields? You'll have a very small subset of people playing a contrived format because they are afraid of something that isn't a real issue; meanwhile, the P-DSII players will be playing the exact same games in the next room over. Just go play Jawa or Open or whatever where you have a much larger card pool and shields.

I think the actual solution to get the tentative players doing the P-DSII thing is to show them how little NPE is actually employed. This is a nostalgia format with little reason to be ultra competitive because we are in it for the fun of the game. It isn't fun to lose OR win with broken stuff, so very few people play it and if they do, have to do it sparingly if they ever want to find an opponent again. All the obvious stuff, like inserts, if it bothers you that much, can be blocked before you even start your first turn - at the cost of a single deck slot.

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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by Dark Deal Abuse »

Agree 100 % with you. I love when people complain about inserts in Prem-Ds2, Prem-ref2. Deck is legit crushed by one single magic bullet that is often used anyways :)

Personally I do not have an interest in ever using Shields and will not partake in this format. If it happens I do hope people enjoy it b/c ultimately the more people that enjoy SWCCG the better

DS-61-4 wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 8:30 pm
What problem are we trying to solve here? If we are trying to create a format that will unite the P-DSII crowd with the people who play Open but are afraid of NPE, this is not the solution.

I can't speak for all of us, but I suspect a large portion of players who only do P-DSII or P-RefII (or CnoV) are not likely to play a format with shields. Given that this crowd is in it for the purity of the format and is not put off by the NPE (because there really isn't all that much abuse to begin with) there's no reason to sacrifice our values to play in a new format.

A shielded format would be to entice people who are turned off by the perceived NPE aspects of those formats and have already shown they don't care about mixing the OT with the George Lucas or Disney SW fanfiction movies - in which case, what's the point of a new format with shields? You'll have a very small subset of people playing a contrived format because they are afraid of something that isn't a real issue; meanwhile, the P-DSII players will be playing the exact same games in the next room over. Just go play Jawa or Open or whatever where you have a much larger card pool and shields.

I think the actual solution to get the tentative players doing the P-DSII thing is to show them how little NPE is actually employed. This is a nostalgia format with little reason to be ultra competitive because we are in it for the fun of the game. It isn't fun to lose OR win with broken stuff, so very few people play it and if they do, have to do it sparingly if they ever want to find an opponent again. All the obvious stuff, like inserts, if it bothers you that much, can be blocked before you even start your first turn - at the cost of a single deck slot.
I ONLY play PREMIERE- REFLECTIONS II (no v-cards, no shields and most importantly no Episode 1)...would love to talk to others that play this format! :popcrn:

Actively trying to build an old school SWCCG player base in Michigan. PM me if interested!

My Prem-Ref2 Cube is Complete!

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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by arebelspy »


Hazardville wrote:
Corran wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 4:41 pm
Hazardville wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 4:11 pm
shirairyu wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 2:46 pm
Premiere-Tatooine [no Ep1] + Knowledge and Defense v and Anger Fear Aggression v. Done.
...or maybe Decipher Cards no-EPI (except Starting Effect if they count as EPI cards).....or is there a point why to prefer the virtual Starting Effects?
I see little value in the mini-game of "which shields do I include in my under-starting effect cards", and getting and extra shield pull is all upside.
I like that mini-game, but not for this format. I'd 100% play in an open environment where AFAv and K&Dv were banned, so you had to use the Fear SEs.
Unless we're willing to put in a single shield called "Just Knock it the Hell Off" that cancels every card currently cancelled by a shield
This got funnier the more I read it.


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Re: DSII / RefII with shields?

Post by Corran »

Hazardville wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 6:18 pm
Corran wrote:
November 27th, 2020, 4:41 pm
Hazardville wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 4:11 pm
shirairyu wrote:
November 25th, 2020, 2:46 pm
Premiere-Tatooine [no Ep1] + Knowledge and Defense v and Anger Fear Aggression v. Done.
...or maybe Decipher Cards no-EPI (except Starting Effect if they count as EPI cards).....or is there a point why to prefer the virtual Starting Effects?
I see little value in the mini-game of "which shields do I include in my under-starting effect cards", and getting and extra shield pull is all upside.
I like that mini-game, but not for this format. I'd 100% play in an open environment where AFAv and K&Dv were banned, so you had to use the Fear SEs.
Unless we're willing to put in a single shield called "Just Knock it the Hell Off" that cancels every card currently cancelled by a shield, I want no part of this. If we are shielding cards because we don't want people to use them, we should not put in any limitations which might make that not the case. If Revolution, Order to Engage, Beggar etc. are broken enough to warrant being shielded in a way that outright cancels them, then let's make sure that that's relevant.

I mean, I'd prefer that those cards just be banned period so we don't have to deal with stupid half-measures, but you know, for some reason that's a bad idea, so here we are.
What it comes down to is, are Shields acting in place of a banned list or are they acting as a sideboard. It used to be that, with very few exceptions, it was a sideboard. There was a game in deciding which cheese to expect, but you could still get stuff to get through. I'm not saying that I would want Open to be any different from where we're at, nor am I interested in no shields at all, but if we're making a bunch of new potential formats, one that limited shields seems interesting to me.
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