Getting the Reset convo going

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chrknudsen
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by chrknudsen »

sjacree wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 8:51 am
Having a planned reset ever X years is totally unecessary if cards are released each set at the proper power level.
^ This

I know that the argument is that new cards have to be powerful or they won’t be played, but beyond that being a bit of admitting defeat from a design perspective (you can only make people play the new cards if they’re really powerful?), it also doesn’t seem true if you look beyond major tournaments. Design shouldn’t be focused on creating new cards with the goal of them being tier 1 and seeing a lot of play in tournaments — and I get the sense that this is currently somewhat of a success criteria when it shouldn’t be. Shadow Collective isn’t tier 1, but it still sees regular casual play on GEMP simply because it’s new and interesting. I really don’t believe that power creep is unavoidable, especially not when we have errata, tweaks, blanking and bullets as powerful tools — beyond just not creating overpowered cards out of fear that they won’t see play.



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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Berm »

chrknudsen2 wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 9:01 am
sjacree wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 8:51 am
Having a planned reset ever X years is totally unecessary if cards are released each set at the proper power level.
^ This

I know that the argument is that new cards have to be powerful or they won’t be played, but beyond that being a bit of admitting defeat from a design perspective (you can only make people play the new cards if they’re really powerful?), it also doesn’t seem true if you look beyond major tournaments. Design shouldn’t be focused on creating new cards with the goal of them being tier 1 and seeing a lot of play in tournaments — and I get the sense that this is currently somewhat of a success criteria when it shouldn’t be. Shadow Collective isn’t tier 1, but it still sees regular casual play on GEMP simply because it’s new and interesting. I really don’t believe that power creep is unavoidable, especially not when we have errata, tweaks, blanking and bullets as powerful tools — beyond just not creating overpowered cards out of fear that they won’t see play.
Fully agree with this as well but even from a competitive standpoint. With the way Decipher handled things, the cards themselves can limit the power of opponent's cards (cancelers, cards that subtract power/forfeit, etc.).

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by JarJarDrinks »

The_Emp wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 9:12 am
I was surprised to see there hasn't been anything formally posted yet regarding the next upcoming reset.
It shouldn't really be a surprise.

I would just take it as an indication that there is no current plan to have a reset any time in the foreseeable future.
dx_37 wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 12:12 pm
I would be all for a reset if I get to be on the reset team
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by JarJarDrinks »

arebelspy wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 10:50 pm
That'd be great. A full redux. Not 20 tweaks, but 200. It would also be as much work as a full reset.
Just for perspective. I want no more than 3 or 4 changes. (HDv, HITCO, anti-scum cards).

20 tweaks would ruin the meta. 200 the game.
dx_37 wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 12:12 pm
I would be all for a reset if I get to be on the reset team
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by alphabeta »

A reset is the nuclear option.
Before we reach that point (because reconstruction takes a ton of time and efforts) I would prefer to pick softer paths...

We ve had only 1 tweak set. Lets wait for more.

And I also believe that we should spend a great deal of time on root cause analysis. "Because power creep" is a bit lame excuse IMO.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Corran »

If I were Kathleen Kennedy(She's still the boss of Star Wars right?), here's what I would do:

Form a committee of a half-dozen or so volunteers soonish. Some could be from D&D, but this would be a separate group with separate goals/responsibilities.

Spend some time developing a draft of a base set of 50ish cards, maybe more, including few if any new cards limited to the Skywalker saga, Rogue One, and Solo in theme(maybe even limiting to OT in theme).

Any reworks of characters should have new names(i.e. if reworking Rey call her Rey of Jakku or something) so we can keep the old ones for the All Cards GEMP format.

Get the base set on playtesting on GEMP for a good year or two.

Meanwhile, D&D makes some crazy powerful stuff in v-sets 15-20

Reset the virtual pool in early 2024. 2023 at the earliest. 3-4 years later, form a similar committee to complete a new base set, rotating out the existing pool by 2030.

The important thing is that we take time developing the next base set, and start that process before the meta seems like it is beyond fixing.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by alphabeta »

Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 10:32 am

Meanwhile, D&D makes some crazy powerful stuff in v-sets 15-20
Thats committing suicide based on the premises that a reset is inevitable and the only way out.
Again, before we reach that step we should understand and isolate the real core issues.

Most likely the symptoms we see are caused by a few cards. Scrap them and see what happens. Then we can talk about nuking it all

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Corran »

alphabeta wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 11:49 am
Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 10:32 am

Meanwhile, D&D makes some crazy powerful stuff in v-sets 15-20
Thats committing suicide based on the premises that a reset is inevitable and the only way out.
Again, before we reach that step we should understand and isolate the real core issues.

Most likely the symptoms we see are caused by a few cards. Scrap them and see what happens. Then we can talk about nuking it all
But I want to see the power curve pushed further for the next 5 sets. I'm at the point where I think rotation, especially if you have an all cards format as well, is a feature, not a bug.
Check out Bad Deck Breakdowns, a Star Wars CCG Deckbuilding podcast, on the podcatcher of your choice or https://www.kendallcast.ninja
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by alphabeta »

Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:16 pm
alphabeta wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 11:49 am
Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 10:32 am

Meanwhile, D&D makes some crazy powerful stuff in v-sets 15-20
Thats committing suicide based on the premises that a reset is inevitable and the only way out.
Again, before we reach that step we should understand and isolate the real core issues.

Most likely the symptoms we see are caused by a few cards. Scrap them and see what happens. Then we can talk about nuking it all
But I want to see the power curve pushed further for the next 5 sets. I'm at the point where I think rotation, especially if you have an all cards format as well, is a feature, not a bug.
Ok then I agree. We could definitely have a format in which all broken cards and combos are allowed. Could actually be fun somehow.
But it requires us to design and support other formats, including the cards that allow this to happen and ringfence the use of these OP cards down to controlled environments.

Somehow linked to the "era" or more general "thematic deckbuilding restrictions" topics recently discussed, I suppose...

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by arebelspy »

Corran wrote:
alphabeta wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 11:49 am
Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 10:32 am

Meanwhile, D&D makes some crazy powerful stuff in v-sets 15-20
Thats committing suicide based on the premises that a reset is inevitable and the only way out.
Again, before we reach that step we should understand and isolate the real core issues.

Most likely the symptoms we see are caused by a few cards. Scrap them and see what happens. Then we can talk about nuking it all
But I want to see the power curve pushed further for the next 5 sets. I'm at the point where I think rotation, especially if you have an all cards format as well, is a feature, not a bug.
Oh yeah, I'd love to see some blow out power cards.

I love when powerful cards push the game and meta forward.


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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by shawnd1984 »

arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 1:12 pm
Corran wrote:
alphabeta wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 11:49 am
Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 10:32 am

Meanwhile, D&D makes some crazy powerful stuff in v-sets 15-20
Thats committing suicide based on the premises that a reset is inevitable and the only way out.
Again, before we reach that step we should understand and isolate the real core issues.

Most likely the symptoms we see are caused by a few cards. Scrap them and see what happens. Then we can talk about nuking it all
But I want to see the power curve pushed further for the next 5 sets. I'm at the point where I think rotation, especially if you have an all cards format as well, is a feature, not a bug.
Oh yeah, I'd love to see some blow out power cards.

I love when powerful cards push the game and meta forward.
Remember when Holdo self sacrifice was a initially a topic of controversy?
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by arebelspy »

shawnd1984 wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 2:21 pm
arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 1:12 pm
Corran wrote:
alphabeta wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 11:49 am
Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 10:32 am

Meanwhile, D&D makes some crazy powerful stuff in v-sets 15-20
Thats committing suicide based on the premises that a reset is inevitable and the only way out.
Again, before we reach that step we should understand and isolate the real core issues.

Most likely the symptoms we see are caused by a few cards. Scrap them and see what happens. Then we can talk about nuking it all
But I want to see the power curve pushed further for the next 5 sets. I'm at the point where I think rotation, especially if you have an all cards format as well, is a feature, not a bug.
Oh yeah, I'd love to see some blow out power cards.

I love when powerful cards push the game and meta forward.
Remember when Holdo self sacrifice was a initially a topic of controversy?
Or LMFBM?

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Jedicon »

arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 2:39 pm
shawnd1984 wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 2:21 pm
arebelspy wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 1:12 pm
Corran wrote:
alphabeta wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 11:49 am
Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 10:32 am

Meanwhile, D&D makes some crazy powerful stuff in v-sets 15-20
Thats committing suicide based on the premises that a reset is inevitable and the only way out.
Again, before we reach that step we should understand and isolate the real core issues.

Most likely the symptoms we see are caused by a few cards. Scrap them and see what happens. Then we can talk about nuking it all
But I want to see the power curve pushed further for the next 5 sets. I'm at the point where I think rotation, especially if you have an all cards format as well, is a feature, not a bug.
Oh yeah, I'd love to see some blow out power cards.

I love when powerful cards push the game and meta forward.
Remember when Holdo self sacrifice was a initially a topic of controversy?
Or LMFBM?
Has LMFBM ever stopped being controversial?

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Therion »

Jedicon wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 3:16 pm
Has LMFBM ever stopped being controversial?
Does it still flout the do not virtualize list?

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by sac89837 »

Hayes wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 1:29 am
power creep gets out of control and it makes design's job more difficult
This is false. Power creep makes my job easier. There are arguments to be made for a reset/redux/redo whatever, this is not one of them.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Hayes »

sac89837 wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 3:39 pm
Hayes wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 1:29 am
power creep gets out of control and it makes design's job more difficult
This is false. Power creep makes my job easier. There are arguments to be made for a reset/redux/redo whatever, this is not one of them.
perhaps i needed a comma or period there. my full sentence was:
Hayes wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 1:29 am
power creep gets out of control and it makes design's job more difficult, overall, when more cards exist.
power creep gets out of control when more cards exist. (does no one remember the rops deck that ended T1 every game with the executor in play?)

it makes design's job is more difficult, overall, when more [virtual] cards exist. [by virtue of there bring more strategies to consider/balance and possible unintended interactions with older cards]

Unless you mean to say that design's goal is NOT to attempt to create a balanced environment?

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by sac89837 »

Hayes wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 3:52 pm
i.e. power creep gets out of control [if there is never a reset]. it makes design's job is more difficult, overall, when more [virtual] cards exist [by virtue of more strategies to consider and possible unintended interactions with older cards]

Unless you mean to say that design's goal is NOT to attempt to create a balanced environment?
Due to GEMP and then need for every card to be programmed before being release, unintended interactions are not a large worry. We also don't fundamentally change the rules of the game, like Yu-Gi-Oh going from Master Rule 3 -> Master Rule 4 if you get the reference.

Power creep opens doors to creating counters or boosting decks that suddenly weak to a certain strategy. For instance now EBO could certainly use help against HDv. These are the easiest cards to design. Also with zero power creep tier 1 decks become stagnant as no new cards can be added to them. I certainly can't make a new ISB agent, bounty hunter or smuggler right now.

The hardest part of design (besides coordinating with player cards) is creating new mechanics that players find interesting but not broken. See V14 Rey.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Hayes »

to be very clear, i am not arguing against power creep. it's the model decipher employed and we have continued.

i don't understand your yu-gi-oh reference. all i know is that "adds one battle destiny" and/or "cancel and redraw" text is all over the place now. that's a far cry from farmboy luke -> commie luke -> SoS. if you never reset the vcard pool then things will only escalate to a detrimental level.

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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by Corran »

For me, the biggest issue with power creep is the combination of low deploy and high activation killing the early game. I like the idea of having to save force to deploy or for Jabba to be able to hold a site in the early game. Redraws are something that could be fixed with errata, and I always support drawing more battle destinies.
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Re: Getting the Reset convo going

Post by shawnd1984 »

Corran wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 4:39 pm
I always support drawing more battle destinies.
Agreed to a point. Gift of the Mentor doesn't bother me, because it's a lost interrupt. Not a fan typically of destiny addition included on character gametext... Typically.
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